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The Doom Scythe's weapon causes hits on all models under the line. If LoS cannot be drawn from the barrel of the weapon to a hit model, can wounds be allocated to that model?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
The Doom Scythe's weapon causes hits on all models under the line.

This is not true. The Death Ray causes a number of hits on the unit equal to the number of models in the unit under the line.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
The Doom Scythe's weapon causes hits on all models under the line.

This is not true. The Death Ray causes a number of hits on the unit equal to the number of models in the unit under the line.

Isnt this under a debate? I remember seeing a thread about this

No, it's not under debate. The codex is quite clear:

Every unit... underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line.

Alright, good catch, Ghazzy.

Let me refine my question:
The Doom Scythe's weapon causes hits on all models units under the line. If LoS cannot be drawn from the barrel of the weapon to a hit model unit, can wounds be allocated to that model unit?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Alright, good catch, Ghazzy.

Let me refine my question:
The Doom Scythe's weapon causes hits on all models units under the line. If LoS cannot be drawn from the barrel of the weapon to a hit model unit, can wounds be allocated to that model unit?

I play it as "Yes, but be generous with allowing cover saves" because I can't see any rule telling me not to assign hits.

changemod wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Alright, good catch, Ghazzy.

Let me refine my question:
The Doom Scythe's weapon causes hits on all models units under the line. If LoS cannot be drawn from the barrel of the weapon to a hit model unit, can wounds be allocated to that model unit?

I play it as "Yes, but be generous with allowing cover saves" because I can't see any rule telling me not to assign hits.

Hits are definitely allowed, since the weapon's special rule generates hits without referencing LoS. However, hits are different than wounds. BRB p35 says that you need LoS to allocate wounds. The Death Ray has nothing overriding this wound stipulation.
So can you wound things out of LoS with the Death Ray?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Alright, good catch, Ghazzy.

Let me refine my question:
The Doom Scythe's weapon causes hits on all models units under the line. If LoS cannot be drawn from the barrel of the weapon to a hit model unit, can wounds be allocated to that model unit?

I play it as "Yes, but be generous with allowing cover saves" because I can't see any rule telling me not to assign hits.

Hits are definitely allowed, since the weapon's special rule generates hits without referencing LoS. However, hits are different than wounds. BRB p35 says that you need LoS to allocate wounds. The Death Ray has nothing overriding this wound stipulation.
So can you wound things out of LoS with the Death Ray?

Uh...

Can you assign wounds when a blast scatters behind a building onto a unit? It's the same situation.

changemod wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

So can you wound things out of LoS with the Death Ray?

Uh...
Can you assign wounds when a blast scatters behind a building onto a unit? It's the same situation.

Actually, it's not.
Blasts, p158, have an exemption to the normal hit/wound process: "[Blasts] can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight." And again, "Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight...."

So, Blasts call out both Hits and Wounds out of LoS. The Death Ray only mentions Hits, and does not mention Wounds.

changemod wrote:
Uh...

Can you assign wounds when a blast scatters behind a building onto a unit? It's the same situation.

No, its not the same situation. Without a specific exception, it follows the base rules for allocating wounds and removing casualties as you would for any other weapon (a bolter, for example).

Nothing allows the Death Ray to avoid the LOS rules. It simply generates a number of hits based on the models under the line ( just like markers and templates) and then wounds are allocated as normal. Unlike Blasts there is no exception for LOS.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

So can you wound things out of LoS with the Death Ray?

Uh...
Can you assign wounds when a blast scatters behind a building onto a unit? It's the same situation.

Actually, it's not.

No, it's clearly the same situation of hits being assigned out of sight, it's just that that one is accounted for.

changemod wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

So can you wound things out of LoS with the Death Ray?

Uh...
Can you assign wounds when a blast scatters behind a building onto a unit? It's the same situation.

Actually, it's not.

No, it's clearly the same situation of hits being assigned out of sight, it's just that that one is accounted for.

And since the death ray is not accounted for, its a different situation. One is accounted for and one is not. The one that's accounted for can allocate to models out of range or line of sight. The one that's not accounted for can not.

Units outside of Line of Sight can be hit... but if those hits cause wounds, the wounds can't be allocated to models out of Line of Sight as per the normal rules for wounding.

If a death ray passes over 3 models out of 10 in a unit, how many hits does that unit take?

 Ghaz wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

So can you wound things out of LoS with the Death Ray?

Uh...
Can you assign wounds when a blast scatters behind a building onto a unit? It's the same situation.

Actually, it's not.

No, it's clearly the same situation of hits being assigned out of sight, it's just that that one is accounted for.

And since the death ray is not accounted for, its a different situation. One is accounted for and one is not. The one that's accounted for can allocate to models out of range or line of sight. The one that's not accounted for can not.

I was saying to reference blasts and see if the entirely identical issue of assigning hits outside line of sight was accounted for, to see whether or not how it was dealt with there was carried over. Turns out it doesn't.

What is the problem you're having here.

You're trying to use blasts which has a special exception that allows it to scatter beyond its maximum minimum range and line of sight and still inflict wounds as a precedent for the death ray to do the same.

Please provide an actual rule to back up your claims that this is the "same situation" because the rules say its not. The death ray doesn't scatter so it can not even use the rules for blast weapons as a precedent.

 Ghaz wrote:
You're trying to use blasts which has a special exception that allows it to scatter beyond its maximum minimum range and line of sight and still inflict wounds as a precedent for the death ray to do the same.

Entirely incorrect.

I was asking him to read the blast rules to see if it said anything relevant. It didn't. That's it.

And I stated it wasn't the same situation and explained why and you insisted it was without referencing the rules in question.

 Ghaz wrote:
And I stated it wasn't the same situation and explained why and you insisted it was without referencing the rules in question.

Ugh.

In situation one, hits are assigned out of line of sight.

In situation two, hits are assigned out of line of sight.

It's only afterwards that it diverges, and I have no idea why you're still trying to be so condescending about this.

changemod wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
You're trying to use blasts which has a special exception that allows it to scatter beyond its maximum minimum range and line of sight and still inflict wounds as a precedent for the death ray to do the same.

Entirely incorrect.

I was asking him to read the blast rules to see if it said anything relevant. It didn't. That's it.

No, what you said was

Can you assign wounds when a blast scatters behind a building onto a unit? It's the same situation.

It was shown that it isn't the same situation at all.

changemod wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And I stated it wasn't the same situation and explained why and you insisted it was without referencing the rules in question.

Ugh.

In situation one, hits are assigned out of line of sight.

In situation two, hits are assigned out of line of sight.

It's only afterwards that it diverges, and I have no idea why you're still trying to be so condescending about this.

Because the death ray can NOT assign hits out of line of sight. If you were to bother to read the rules you would understand this. It can only use models out of line of sight to determine how many hits the unit takes. The only condescending attitude is yours when people have pointed out that you're wrong and why its not the same situation yet you keep insisting that it is with no rules to back up your claims. If you're going to take part in a rules discussion, at least have the common decency to read the rules in question.

Was there a FAQ about Blasts allowing wounds to be allocated to models after the blast rules only allowed them hit models out of LOS?

 Ghaz wrote:

Because the death ray can NOT assign hits out of line of sight. If you were to bother to read the rules you would understand this. It can only use models out of line of sight to determine how many hits the unit takes. The only condescending attitude is yours when people have pointed out that you're wrong and why its not the same situation yet you keep insisting that it is with no rules to back up your claims. If you're going to take part in a rules discussion, at least have the common decency to read the rules in question.

Small edit... It cannot assign Wounds...

Gravmyr wrote:
Was there a FAQ about Blasts allowing wounds to be allocated to models after the blast rules only allowed them hit models out of LOS?

The main rules allow Blasts that scatter to wound despite being out of range and line of sight:

In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat).

Fragile wrote:
Small edit... It cannot assign Wounds...

Correct, because you don't assign hits. You assign the wounds from the hits against the unit (and not the individual models).

Now they do but in 5th/6th did blasts not have a FAQ that allowed it?

 Ghaz wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
Was there a FAQ about Blasts allowing wounds to be allocated to models after the blast rules only allowed them hit models out of LOS?

The main rules allow Blasts that scatter to wound despite being out of range and line of sight:

In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat).

Wounding a unit != allocating wounds.

Just saying.

 Ghaz wrote:
Because the death ray can NOT assign hits out of line of sight. If you were to bother to read the rules you would understand this.
It can only use models out of line of sight to determine how many hits the unit takes.

Which is assigning. The entire reason this discussion came into being was how to procede with those hits.

Exact quote here, since you apparently haven't read it recently yourself:

"Every unit (Friendly or enemy) underneath the line suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in the unit underneath the line."

So yes, five models under the line is five hits assigned, in presicely the same manner as five models underneath a blast template is five hits assigned. After that, it diverges again.

Was that really worth what has now devolved into outright hostility on your part?

The only condescending attitude is yours when people have pointed out that you're wrong and why its not the same situation yet you keep insisting that it is with no rules to back up your claims.

The only reason this absurd sidetrack is even happening is because you opted to be insulting about it in the first place.

If you're going to take part in a rules discussion, at least have the common decency to read the rules in question.

Ah yes, because remembering something similar and giving a suggestion to look at it instead of doing the check personally is a capital offence.

changemod wrote:
Ah yes, because remembering something similar and giving a suggestion to look at it instead of doing the check personally is a capital offence.

You didn't "give a suggestion to look at something similar".

You said it was similar. That's all you said. You left it at that. Fix your original tone and people will respond accordingly. A proper suggestion would've been "Aren't blasts similar? Do they have a rule allowing them to blah blah blah?"

I did not insult you, thank you. All I did was point out why you were wrong. And yes, continuing to tell someone to look at specific rules when others have pointed out that they're wrong and have no bearing on the matter is rude and condescending.