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I'm in the process of developing a new rulebook based on D10 instead of D6 and also rewriting some of the codices and therein clear the mistakes and imbalances. Therefore I would like to know why people don't chooses Vypers for their armies - I understand what's wrong with Howling Banshees but not the Vyper.

Av 10 and Open Topped. So if a Melta hits it, or any AP1, it Explodes on a 4+. Not to mention only two Hull Points and no Invulnerable Sv. So if you Jink, which you have to if anyone shoots at it with anything bigger than a spitwad, you get the good save but now the 50+pt gun platform is worthless for that turn. Literally worthless because it has no function other than the guns.

Well, if you have so points left in your army, take one or two of them.
They can easily fill gaps in your gun line.
Don't expose them heavy enemy fire and move them to give supporting fire.
They are complementing Serpent heavy armies quite well.

What about the rules besides the points cost? Do you think they roughly match the background or are they far off?

It would be a better buy if you could take them buried in jetbike teams and turned them into multi wound bikes like marine attack bikes.

However in the current codex that's a bit op I feel you would need to move the Jetbike squadrons to fast if you wanted to do that. And you would upset every eldar player in the process as they would go from having 9 troops choices to maybe 1 troops choice if that.

Chaospling wrote:
What about the rules besides the points cost? Do you think they roughly match the background or are they far off?

They match the background well, the rules are just horrific. For a Vyper with a SL/SC (no idea if this is a good load out, never used vypers b/c they're so bad) it's 70 points. For 10 more points you get a hornet from forge world w/2 pulse lasers. So two units that fill exactly the same role, with a 10 point difference. You expect only a slight variation in def/offense. Instead:

Vyper- AV10 2HP Open Topped 7 S6 AP6/5 shots

Hornet- AV11 2HP not open topped 4 S8 Ap2 shots Built in Star Engines and snap fires after flat outs

Vypers would be acceptable at maybe half the price, as is they are just absurdly over costed for what they do. They are fast and fragile glass hammers, laying down heavy fire strafing runs or outflanking heavy armor for kill shots. A space marine with a bolter can force them to jink, almost guaranteeing your vyper is jinking the majority of the game. So now not only is it fragile, it's inaccurate to boot. So your 50-70 point model has little defense and no offence, why did you bring it?

To fix this, vypers either need to be cheaper, have better range to stay safe (not likely you'd need to change every gun in the book), or some gimick that gives them a purpose. Either drop points enough so that they are truly disposable, or give them a gimmick to justify their points. If they could fire at full BS after jinking, I'd strongly think about a squad or two jetting around and tying up my opponents target priority. End of the day fixing points would be easier, but I think the gimmick would make them fun.


*Edit* I actually really like ionusx's idea as well. Hadn't even considered that.

Granted, Hornets are kinda crazy good themselves, but Vypers are as bad as Hornets are good.

There's probably something more uberer in that slot.

The rules? A bit undewhelming, but within balance. The background describes them not as ultimate weapons of righteous retribution but rather as speedy harassers, which is actually what they do, so I think the rules are spot-on in this regard.

The problem with Vypers is, precisely, one of point costs. They were introduced as the Eldar response to vehicles like the Space Marine Attack Bike or the Ork Warbuggy, a mobile heavy weapons platform. Of course, back in 2nd - 3rd edition, a single mobile big gun was something to be afraid of, but now it's a bit underwhelming. They are individually weak and, without special rules or other shenanigans to make up for it, too pricey to be taken en masse, so most Eldar players tend to overlook them.

The good thing for Vypers is that they sit in a spot where there's not much competition. Codex: Eldar is relatively light on Fast Attack choices, so taking one or two of them is not a bad idea if you have some empty slots and spare points left. Like wuestenflux said, they go well with some more immediate threats like Serpents. If left unchecked, they can position themselves where they can do some nasty damage.

The issue is manifold with vypers. They really are not bad but they are also not good, just a bit useless as they have lots of little issues.
1) Short range and non matching weapons. If vypers could get two of the heavy weapons like warwalkers they would be massively better. Having one 24" or less weapon means if they are firing effectively then everything else is also shooting them. If you only take 1 of the heavy weapons they start becoming more overpriced for the damage output.
2) AV10 open topped. Yypers are very easy to kill for their price and if you let them jink they don't shoot well. This is not a huge problem on it's own but when combined with point 2 and the relatively low range it becomes big.
3) Size and flying bases. The model is not very small for an AV10 open topped vehicle on a flying base. This means you are almost always in LoS. This becomes extremely noticeable when you use warwalkers in the same army with their move-fire-move.
4) They don't fulfill a unique role. There are numerous units that have similar or better damage output, are approximately the same speed, and are all better in one way or another. If you want to see a vyper which has been done right check out the IA11 hornet. The newest one is a bit over the top but not broken or anything. The biggest problem is that there is nothing unique about how they play, except them being a bit less efficient than most other options.

Plus the model is even somewhat boring. Looks like an eldar jetbike model but bigger.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
The rules? A bit undewhelming, but within balance. The background describes them not as ultimate weapons of righteous retribution but rather as speedy harassers, which is actually what they do, so I think the rules are spot-on in this regard.

The problem with Vypers is, precisely, one of point costs. They were introduced as the Eldar response to vehicles like the Space Marine Attack Bike or the Ork Warbuggy, a mobile heavy weapons platform. Of course, back in 2nd - 3rd edition, a single mobile big gun was something to be afraid of, but now it's a bit underwhelming. They are individually weak and, without special rules or other shenanigans to make up for it, too pricey to be taken en masse, so most Eldar players tend to overlook them.

The good thing for Vypers is that they sit in a spot where there's not much competition. Codex: Eldar is relatively light on Fast Attack choices, so taking one or two of them is not a bad idea if you have some empty slots and spare points left. Like wuestenflux said, they go well with some more immediate threats like Serpents. If left unchecked, they can position themselves where they can do some nasty damage.

Was with you till you got to the "good thing" about Vypers. Fast attack slot is amazing for CWE. Warp Spiders and Hawks are great at what they do. I'll go ya, the rest of the slot is fair (Crimson Hunter) to bad (including the vyper) but it honestly doesn't matter. WS's are an amazing value for what you get, 2 S6 Shots on a 3+ Armor platform that can run AND JsJ is actually incredibly durable. No scatter DS for Hawks is enough reason to take them, anything else they do besides land on objectives in late game is just butter.

Ok, interesting. So an unique role wouldn't hurt but otherwise it's the cost which is the problem. Would be nice to give them a unique role - maybe the Eldar codex from second edition will have some more background? Or was it the same back then?

I would honestly call them ok. They are expensive, but they have the speed to stay out of harms way. You take them to put out a little bit of damage and harass and that is what you get. They won't be spear heading assault or striking fear into the other player. But if the game drags on and they are still on the table, they probably accounted for a handful of kills across the table.

 Dash2021 wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
What about the rules besides the points cost? Do you think they roughly match the background or are they far off?

They match the background well, the rules are just horrific. For a Vyper with a SL/SC (no idea if this is a good load out, never used vypers b/c they're so bad) it's 70 points. For 10 more points you get a hornet from forge world w/2 pulse lasers. So two units that fill exactly the same role, with a 10 point difference. You expect only a slight variation in def/offense. Instead:

Vyper- AV10 2HP Open Topped 7 S6 AP6/5 shots

Hornet- AV11 2HP not open topped 4 S8 Ap2 shots Built in Star Engines and snap fires after flat outs

I wouldn't compare Vypers to Hornets.

Hornets are great, I won't argue against that. But they're horribly imbalanced for the cost. Vypers are very well balanced from a points perspective when you look at the Eldar codex as a whole. When you look at Hornets compared to Vypers, they're just obviously and severely undercosted as a side-effect of Forge World not comparing notes with Games Workshop on the Eldar Codex.

So to say that you shouldn't take Vypers because Hornets are better isn't really the case. It's more honest to say that Hornets are a bit of a cheesy Forge World model compared to the Vyper. Yes, the Hornet is the Vyper's big brother. But if you were to balance the point cost for the Hornet compared to the Vyper, it should cost at least 20-30 points more than it does.

Anyways, I think Vypers are great, personally. A couple Vypers with Starcannons and Suriken Cannons can really be an annoyance on the enemy and do some damage. For me, the only problem they cause is that they're fragile, and they're a good target for the enemy to give up the points for First Blood.

Murrdox wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
What about the rules besides the points cost? Do you think they roughly match the background or are they far off?

They match the background well, the rules are just horrific. For a Vyper with a SL/SC (no idea if this is a good load out, never used vypers b/c they're so bad) it's 70 points. For 10 more points you get a hornet from forge world w/2 pulse lasers. So two units that fill exactly the same role, with a 10 point difference. You expect only a slight variation in def/offense. Instead:

Vyper- AV10 2HP Open Topped 7 S6 AP6/5 shots

Hornet- AV11 2HP not open topped 4 S8 Ap2 shots Built in Star Engines and snap fires after flat outs

I wouldn't compare Vypers to Hornets.

Hornets are great, I won't argue against that. But they're horribly imbalanced for the cost. Vypers are very well balanced from a points perspective when you look at the Eldar codex as a whole. When you look at Hornets compared to Vypers, they're just obviously and severely undercosted as a side-effect of Forge World not comparing notes with Games Workshop on the Eldar Codex.

So to say that you shouldn't take Vypers because Hornets are better isn't really the case. It's more honest to say that Hornets are a bit of a cheesy Forge World model compared to the Vyper. Yes, the Hornet is the Vyper's big brother. But if you were to balance the point cost for the Hornet compared to the Vyper, it should cost at least 20-30 points more than it does.

Anyways, I think Vypers are great, personally. A couple Vypers with Starcannons and Suriken Cannons can really be an annoyance on the enemy and do some damage. For me, the only problem they cause is that they're fragile, and they're a good target for the enemy to give up the points for First Blood.

Was trying to do an apples to apples in the FA slot, but yea the Hornet is pretty underpriced. If you want to come straight out of the codex though, you can do the same comparison to a WW. 10 more points gets you another long range heavy weapon a move after shooting, scout, and a save that is close to what the vyper gets for jinking. You could even just stand them in cover if you don't manage to get back out of LOS with your run move, and have the same cover save as a vyper anyway.

Point is 50 points for a gun platform that is forced to jink constantly is just not going to cut it.

Murrdox wrote:

 Dash2021 wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
What about the rules besides the points cost? Do you think they roughly match the background or are they far off?

They match the background well, the rules are just horrific. For a Vyper with a SL/SC (no idea if this is a good load out, never used vypers b/c they're so bad) it's 70 points. For 10 more points you get a hornet from forge world w/2 pulse lasers. So two units that fill exactly the same role, with a 10 point difference. You expect only a slight variation in def/offense. Instead:

Vyper- AV10 2HP Open Topped 7 S6 AP6/5 shots

Hornet- AV11 2HP not open topped 4 S8 Ap2 shots Built in Star Engines and snap fires after flat outs

I wouldn't compare Vypers to Hornets.

Hornets are great, I won't argue against that. But they're horribly imbalanced for the cost. Vypers are very well balanced from a points perspective when you look at the Eldar codex as a whole. When you look at Hornets compared to Vypers, they're just obviously and severely undercosted as a side-effect of Forge World not comparing notes with Games Workshop on the Eldar Codex.

So to say that you shouldn't take Vypers because Hornets are better isn't really the case. It's more honest to say that Hornets are a bit of a cheesy Forge World model compared to the Vyper. Yes, the Hornet is the Vyper's big brother. But if you were to balance the point cost for the Hornet compared to the Vyper, it should cost at least 20-30 points more than it does.

Anyways, I think Vypers are great, personally. A couple Vypers with Starcannons and Suriken Cannons can really be an annoyance on the enemy and do some damage. For me, the only problem they cause is that they're fragile, and they're a good target for the enemy to give up the points for First Blood.

How could you not compare Hornets and vypers? They're basically the same unit that fills the same role with very similar models, except one is really good and the other is fairly bad.

You can also compare them to Space Marine Land Speeders. A heavy weapon, the possibility of two, same specs and same price. But, again, not Open Topped. The Vyper is inferior, even with the option of Vehicle Upgrades like Holofields and GWM but they serve similar basic roles. Firepower support. But a Speeder can change up to much more dynamic roles, vehicle hunters or GEQ annihilators, while the Vyper is set with what it does. Very little real flexibility in my experience.

Well, I think they have a unique role, filling gaps in the gun line.
For this, they should be positioned accordingly and shoot last if possible.
However, I agree their point costs are too high.

Eldar codex just has too much cheeze that does the job better. And viper is just a good vehicle but not cheeze.

The rest of the Skimmers in the book do their job better.

There isn't anything wrong with Vypers per se, it is simply that if you're taking one you could be taking a Wave Serpent to do the same job better.

To comment a subject which I didn't bring up myself is that I don't care if two units fill the same role their costs aside. I understand that from a gaming point of view it doesn't make much sense, but if that's what the background says then it's fine with me.

I just took a look at the Hornet's rules - damn it's good compared to a Vyper - I see your points. The right solution for this besides a cost reduction isn't easy to see.

30pts base with slightly more expensive main guns would fix the Vyper. If each gun got a 5pt increase. That way the turd basic is easy to include with Jetbikes, but when you build them good they still come up to a moderate cost. They'd be much more palatable with a lower base cost and more expensive options.

Once vypers get into a place where they can shoot at something they just have to sit there. Then they invariably die in the opponents phase.

I'd give them outflank but as already stated, there are hornets but they can outflank too and have acute senses. In that case, I'd allow vypers to move in the assault phase. As things are, i find it difficult to use them because they die far too easily after a round of shooting.

Less shooty and less survivable than the war walkers.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
Once vypers get into a place where they can shoot at something they just have to sit there. Then they invariably die in the opponents phase.

I'd give them outflank but as already stated, there are hornets but they can outflank too and have acute senses. In that case, I'd allow vypers to move in the assault phase. As things are, i find it difficult to use them because they die far too easily after a round of shooting.

This would be my solution. Either let them be part of bike squads, or let them make an assault move like jetbikes. According to fluff they're supposed to be as maneuverable as a jetbike anyway - and the ability to hop in and out of cover would make them worth taking.

As a Dark Eldar player, I'd like to object to all these mobility suggestions.

The Dark Eldar army is supposed to be at least as fast as -- if not faster than -- their Eldar counterparts. They strip all the armor off their units, they habitually take combat drugs to enhance their reflexes, and if somebody ends up getting turned to paste across the jagged towers of Commorragh, then that's just hilarious.

After the Dark Eldar codex got their "fleet" rule nerfed in the assault changes of 6th, the Eldar got Battle Focus -- making them faster even on the ground. Then when the new Dark Eldar codex came out, our vehicles could no longer fire effectively at cruising speed.

Meanwhile, Hornets get free star engines and abilities like snap-firing after turbo boosting, and you're suggesting adding an assault move to Vypers.

When Eldar get better mobility, armor, and firepower than Dark Eldar, in addition to the best generic psykers in the game? I think I've got some grounds to complain.

EDIT: Also, 15 points for a 3+ armor HQ jetbike? Where's my jetbikes? Left back in 2nd edition, apparently...