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So, let's say I am a newbie to this game and I am weighing my options for various models. I tried to balance things a bit so I could have plenty of options (playing Nomads) and simply numerically, I landed at 299 points, 6 SWC, and 10 orders.

Without considering the actual make-up of the list, in a very general sense would you rather have 10 orders or maybe dump three order derps (in this particular case I included 3 Moderators) for a more costly model and 8 orders?

This is not a max-min thread, per se, I am simply wondering if I am better off taking a couple crappy models that can't hit the broad side of a barn but allowing myself a little more wiggle room with orders vs having a model that MAY, by itself, add to the list but reduce order count.

I think 10 orders, 6 SWC cost and 300pts is a pretty good target to aim for. It depends on the models really, what is the list you came up with?

I don't recall, exactly, as I'm at work.

iirc, I had 3 Moderators, Grenzer w/sniper, Moira w/HMG, Brigada, SPEKTR, Interventor, and two Geckos.

Essentially, cool-looking models that I have available (Icestorm newb here). Obviously, I proxied my Alguaciles into Moderators to save points. List building in this game is a very new concept coming from other TT war games.

Reaching 300pts, 6SWC or 10 regular orders are goals but not essential.

Given the lack of upgrades, instead needing a whole new profile, reaching the maximum points limits is difficult. Being a few points short isn't going to be a problem.

Reaching 6 SWC is acually quite difficult for some factions or sectorials and incredibly easy for others. When I was toying with CA I would hit the SWC limit super quickly, but with generic Haqqislam I rarely hit it. There's so many great options that don't use or use very little SWC. Then with Hassassin Bahram I'll again hit it quickly.

With orders, the aim is 10 regular orders with 1 group, and 8 per group if I want to go for two groups. But like points this is is fairly fluid. If I'm using a TAG I'll probably end up with 1 group and 9 orders, for example.

Infinity isn't a game to try to maximise efficient points expenditure. The most efficient list will still wind up walking into Critical hits from cheerleaders. Just try to make the list you want to run that game.

If at all possible 10 orders is ideal at 300 points. Getting 6SWC is also nice, but not needed (and sometimes lowballing it can help you hide an LT better).

9 orders (or 9 and an irregular) is very doable at 300.

Going down to 8 and you start to suffer a bit in terms of order attrition if the other list went for 10.

With 2 combat groups, things shift a lot depending on your plan. But ideally you want to have more than 13 models if you are going with two equal groups unless you go for 10 in the first and 1-3 throwaway units in the other list (popular in some lists, especially ones with access to cheap regular orders). For twin combat groups, I tend to find the sweet spot at either 10-6 or 8-8. The former being for a main group with a secondary group supporting a single model with a decent order pool (I've run a list where the second group is a Kuang Shi horde + Handler supporting a swift Rui Shi attack remote that worked out pretty well alongside the main list). The other one is basically for the more horde-y factions to run what are essentially two near-full order pools while still having some hefty choices in each.

If your group's meta tends to not aim for those 10+ orders? Chances are trying to aim for them will put you at the top of the skill heap pretty quickly. We have a player in our group that doesn't tend to prioritize orders and is sometimes running as few as 6-8 minis (with some being irregular) in a single list at 300 points. Combined and Aleph can be pretty brutal for that if the player isn't choosy about what to take and what to leave. When you start making a list and find you are fitting a Charontid in along side an Anathematic and going for the pricey loadouts on them, you tend to need to take a step back and realize you probably don't need every fancy toy in the list.

So yeah, aim for 10 orders as a first priority. If you handily meet that, then try and aim at filling more than 3 SWC at 300 points. If you manage that easily, see if you can squeeze up to 5-6. Don't sacrifice orders to try and fill up SWC though, that rarely works out unless you know what you're doing.

Thanks for the input, it would seem that I built things ok numerically, now it is a matter of learning to play and then making better choices in the future. I'll keep the 10 orders then, and swap models in/out as I gain board experience.

I know with CA it is pretty easy to get caught up in all the awesome models they have and forget to actually pack in any orders. The good news is that they also have some pretty cheap cheeerleaders compared to everything else in their roster.

Back when I used to play more often I would usually have 8 models, but a LT with Strategos, so it could use its LT order on anybody in the combat group, effectively giving me 8 bodies and 9 orders. For a list with a TAG in it that seemed reasonable to me.

Like I said, by the numbers I landed on having 6 SWC with 10 orders, I just wasn't sure if that was the best way to do things. It seemed like a happy little mix of models as well, but certainly it can't be THAT easy to build a solid list.

'It's not your list, it's you'

I cannot build decent lists in any other game without extensive help but I can build a playable list by myself in Infinity, because every model (well the vast majority) can always do something on the table. Unless you have like 3 orders, you can probably play it. 300pts, 10 models, 6SWC is pretty spot on for a one combat group list but it's not at all necessary for your list to be that. 9 orders is fine. 8 is okay. 5 SWC is fine. 296 points is okay.

Part of why I love the game is that what you do on the table matters much much more than what you bring to the table.

 ImAGeek wrote:
'It's not your list, it's you'

I cannot build decent lists in any other game without extensive help but I can build a playable list by myself in Infinity, because every model (well the vast majority) can always do something on the table. Unless you have like 3 orders, you can probably play it. 300pts, 10 models, 6SWC is pretty spot on for a one combat group list but it's not at all necessary for your list to be that. 9 orders is fine. 8 is okay. 5 SWC is fine. 296 points is okay.

Part of why I love the game is that what you do on the table matters much much more than what you bring to the table.

That is why I'm getting into it. I still love my Warmahordes, but this will be a great fast-playing game.

To be fair, it's still possible to build a dud list. For example, if you have a bunch of stuff with no hackers and are playing a scenario where the only points to gain are from hacking consoles, no amount of skill will claim those objectives.

That being said, it's much easier to build a list in Infinity. There's no real 'combos' to build around, and synergy between units is fairly easy to see. If you see you have guys with multispectral visors and others with zero-v smoke grenades, it's easy to see that they compliment each other. Just try to get at least one of each specialist in there (Forward Observer, Hacker, Doctor, Engineer).

Regarding having a 'good little mix' of units, that's exactly what you want. The only time you'd want to see repeat units is probably on rifle armed cheerleaders, with 2-3 of them. It's fairly easy to see someone transition from, say, 40k, when their list looks like this:

Kaplan Combi Rifle
Kaplan Combi Rifle
Kaplan Combi Rifle
Kaplan Combi Rifle
Kaplan Spitfire
Odalisque Rifle (Haris)
Odalisque Rifle
Odalisque Spitfire
Al Hawwa Sniper
Al Hawwa Sniper

You can obviously see the intent, to make little 'squads' that move about the table together. with lots of rifles (boltguns) and an additional special weapon (missile launcher) that does the real damage and the rest are basically ablative wounds. Then a pair of special weapons to camp around and shoot.

What you actually want is, for example, in that Kaplam unit, remove 3 of the ordinary rifle models and add maybe a sniper (for longer range AROs), an Engineer (for objectives) and a doctor (for objectives and getting KO'd guys back on their feet). The Spitfire will probably be the go-to link leader, but you want a bunch of different stuff to deal with different situations.

I'm a Infinity Noobie as well. Question about army selection- and it's something I've noticed a bit in my local meta as well.

Players seem to take 2-3 awesome models with full SWC, options, etc. etc., and then fill in the rest of the list with the cheapest, derp models they can find to get 10 orders in their group. The Derp Models all take full cover and sit in the back field in full cover for just about the whole game. The only time they see the light of day is when the awesome guys are dead. Again, in my meta, I always see one awesome model in Camo or held in "reserve" to deploy in the back field and kill the Derp Models. Every game I've watched so far has come down to who gets his Awesome model in the back zone and kills the most Derp models taking away his opponent's orders.

The game seems to come down to the awesome models fighting it out, with all these other models that are present on the board that do nothing but provide orders. What's the point/why should I even go through all the trouble to purchase, assemble, and paint models that really do nothing on the table? Which there is nothing wrong with that, but the thing that attracted me to Infinity was it's "A-Team" kind of make up. Several specialists working together to win a game. Instead, I see like 1-2 models winning the game and 8-9 derp models taken just for orders.

Is it possible to play and win a game with only 4-5 good models and less then 10 orders/6 SWC's in a 300 point game?

Oh, the cheerleader hate syndrome, well, you seem to be watching/playing kill stuff missions, once you start playing objective missions (get the boxes, hack the antennaes, search that box then blow it up, etc) is when Infinity gets interesting, to be honest I really hate anihilation missions.

It is possible. Most of the scenarios I can think of will go around a link team, say a link team of MI - HI supported by few infiltrators, AD and specialists, though you really want to have 10 orders at 300 points. Same are more awesome than others, particularly once you start playing ITS.

 Tamwulf wrote:
The game seems to come down to the awesome models fighting it out, with all these other models that are present on the board that do nothing but provide orders. What's the point/why should I even go through all the trouble to purchase, assemble, and paint models that really do nothing on the table? Which there is nothing wrong with that, but the thing that attracted me to Infinity was it's "A-Team" kind of make up. Several specialists working together to win a game. Instead, I see like 1-2 models winning the game and 8-9 derp models taken just for orders.

I play my Hassassin this way. My last game was 8 regular models and 2 irregular models. The regulars consisted of a 5 model Muyib link team, a Farzan FO, a Barid Lt Hacker and I think a Lasiq sniper, while the irregular models were a pair of Ghazi Muttawi'ah.

It made up its order efficiency with a linked team, 5 models moving with a single order. The Farzan FO was hidden most of the game as I didn't need him, so he was essentially a cheerleader. The Lasiq's job was to sit in a nice perch, look pretty and blow the face off anyone who stuck it out. She was a cheerleader. The Barid hacker and the Muyib link team are what did the heavy lifting, and again, order efficiency from a link team. The Ghazi basically just sat there cancelling their Impetuous Orders with their Irregular orders until I needed them.

So yeah, it's perfectly doable to have a list made up of badasses. But even in that list, you're going to, depending on what's happening in the game on that turn, have models that are more order hungry than others. You won't have dedicated cheerleaders, but you'll still wind up designating models as cheerleaders depending on the situation.

Regarding cheerleader hate, there's no reason to dislike them. They aren't just providing an order. They're watching the flanks and shooting in ARO to people trying to get at you from the sides and rear. Depending on what they're equipped with, they're backup units to tackle something your main guys can't. For example, it's not uncommon for Haqqislam players to take 2-3 cheerleaders equipped with Panzerfausts. If there's a HI or TAG on the prowl that your main offense can't handle, activating a 'cheerleader' to get behind it and unload a Panzerfaust is an unexpected severe blow.

I think the fear (for newer players that hear things) is less about having cheerleaders and more about having the "Rambo" syndrome where all your orders go into one guy that dominates the game with his endless supply of orders, rather than having a game where your pieces all mean something. Having a few cheap models to fill out the order pool is fine.

My main question here was whether the order pool is the most important thing since I could take 3 order derps or one somewhat better model, losing 2 orders in the process.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
The game seems to come down to the awesome models fighting it out, with all these other models that are present on the board that do nothing but provide orders. What's the point/why should I even go through all the trouble to purchase, assemble, and paint models that really do nothing on the table? Which there is nothing wrong with that, but the thing that attracted me to Infinity was it's "A-Team" kind of make up. Several specialists working together to win a game. Instead, I see like 1-2 models winning the game and 8-9 derp models taken just for orders.

I play my Hassassin this way. My last game was 8 regular models and 2 irregular models. The regulars consisted of a 5 model Muyib link team, a Farzan FO, a Barid Lt Hacker and I think a Lasiq sniper, while the irregular models were a pair of Ghazi Muttawi'ah.

It made up its order efficiency with a linked team, 5 models moving with a single order. The Farzan FO was hidden most of the game as I didn't need him, so he was essentially a cheerleader. The Lasiq's job was to sit in a nice perch, look pretty and blow the face off anyone who stuck it out. She was a cheerleader. The Barid hacker and the Muyib link team are what did the heavy lifting, and again, order efficiency from a link team. The Ghazi basically just sat there cancelling their Impetuous Orders with their Irregular orders until I needed them.

So yeah, it's perfectly doable to have a list made up of badasses. But even in that list, you're going to, depending on what's happening in the game on that turn, have models that are more order hungry than others. You won't have dedicated cheerleaders, but you'll still wind up designating models as cheerleaders depending on the situation.

Regarding cheerleader hate, there's no reason to dislike them. They aren't just providing an order. They're watching the flanks and shooting in ARO to people trying to get at you from the sides and rear. Depending on what they're equipped with, they're backup units to tackle something your main guys can't. For example, it's not uncommon for Haqqislam players to take 2-3 cheerleaders equipped with Panzerfausts. If there's a HI or TAG on the prowl that your main offense can't handle, activating a 'cheerleader' to get behind it and unload a Panzerfaust is an unexpected severe blow.

Such dynamic is unavoidable when playing annihilation based scenarios. It's highly likely most of your orders will go on a particular unit/link team that will try to dominate the table.

Similar to focus mechanic, it's your lifeblood, the more you have it, the more you'll be able to do.

I'd just add that while indeed in active turn the vast majority of the real action is often done by those few more powerful units, the cheerleaders' time to shine comes in reactive turn, when those powerful support weapon wielding rambos are down to one shot just like their fellow cheerleaders.

Sure they still might weigh in with superior stats, range band and equipment, but that's mostly not a huge difference on a single shot.

A back- and middlefield that is well guarded by some orderbots can make all the difference between wearing down the enemies rambo after half a turn or losing the whole game to it.
If you miss just one angle in your backfield, a well played AD combat jump unit might tear you a new one and ruin your day one soft target at a time.

Imagine your bogstandard riflemen to be on guard duty, they provide cover and keep the backfield clear while the specialists go do their thing.
When you come to think of it, that is much more realistic than in most wargames because having everyone in an army advance on "fortified" positions at the same time (or one after the other) wouldn't be a very smart move.
Let the artillery/paratroopers/scouts do their job, while everybody else waits for the targets to soften up enough for ordinary infantry to attack on a wider front.

Also don't forget those plain statistics. I've had a 16p myrmidon crit-kill the leader of a full loup garous team in reactive turn, at 24" with his pistol.
Crit happens!

ARO's kill.
I,had one game. First move my opponent gave me a shot.
In all fairness a Sin Eater with a HMG is nothing to balk at.
One full burst in aro. Equalled one dead Morat LT.
That guy alone took down roughly 35 40 percent of a total annihilation at 200 pts.
Deployments and good use of LOS and ARO will allow you,to use your support models properly.
I won that game with no casualties.
Pin Up Daktari to,the rescue.

 Moktor wrote:
So, let's say I am a newbie to this game

Take ten models till you know when to break that rule.

I,had one game. First move my opponent gave me a shot.

Sounds like your playing with "Gotcha" rules. Infinity is terrible if you play it that way, one mistaken ARO can cost the entire game, and I don't know about you but if I'm going to drive into town and spend several hours playing a game I don't want to win or lose based on that.

 Tamwulf wrote:

Is it possible to play and win a game with only 4-5 good models and less then 10 orders/6 SWC's in a 300 point game?

Both extremes are possible, a lot depends on what faction you play, what mission you are playing etc. I'm playing in a tournament tomorrow with a 14-miniature list. Not spam of cheap units, but lots of special and medium infantry, and lots of specialists as they are really important in ITS (lots of missions require some kind of interaction from them).

On the other extreme, a friend of mine is playing with only 7 miniatures in his Aleph force - their specialists tend to be awesome but very expensive. To make up for the order shortfall he uses Netrods (little deployable order generators) and hopes that they won't scatter on landing and end up directly in front of the enemy force..

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