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Dear miniature manufacturer,

Let me start off by saying that I love all the stuff I buy from you, and all this comes form a place of love. That being said, I see some trends and some old holdovers habits that really could be worked on.

1) 99% of your products are being put together with super glue and hope. Please produce you models with that in mind. But I can hear you say I should pin the models to have a strong...let me stop you there. There are maybe 200 true pinners left in the world and of those only 25 are breeding. NO ONE PINS UNLESS THEY ABSOLUTELY MUST( ok, some do).

2) To put a model together I score both points, apply a small dab of superglue, take hold of both bit Firmly and press them together till the glue feels like bonding. If the bits of your model hurts to hold firmly maybe rethink it.

3) I see you got (insert artist) to paint your models to really show how great they look, wonderful! Yep, (insert artist) is great, super in fact...to bad I'm playing with friends who are almost are ready to put a a coat of primer on there models after having them for +6 months. How about rather then having the artist product one really great model. You work with them to come up with a way to paint your models quickly and with only a small amont of skill. You know, so I can play with army that's not white metal or gray plastic, hurts the feel of the game.

4) You are, in the end, are making game pieces for a game (more often then not) you made. There is NO reason for the game pieces you make to get in the way of the game you also made. none. the gun is so big the I can't get into b2b with cover and now my clever plan looks a lot less clever. I final got my opponent in the perfect place to charge, but there are horns/hands/SOMETHING in the way so I must turn my model 180 and do a butt charge(which gets a little less funny ever time you you do it(for some people)). If you model needs a bigger base to fit completely on the base, then give it a bigger base ( they're one of the cheap things in this hobby)! If giving it a bigger base messes with the game then maybe you should have thought of that before making the model.

5) Game pieces are toys, dolls in fact(there I said it). They will be tipped over, knock about, and (ugh) dropped. Please put time in thinking on how to make them a tough as possible. and no matter how cool you think that hair thin bit will make the model, please reconsider, most will end up be happier without it.

your truly, I-jabbed-my-thumb.

 Warplock wrote:
1) 99% of your products are being put together with super glue and hope. Please produce you models with that in mind. But I can hear you say I should pin the models to have a strong...let me stop you there. There are maybe 200 true pinners left in the world and of those only 25 are breeding. NO ONE PINS UNLESS THEY ABSOLUTELY MUST( ok, some do).

Not seeing a problem here. If you're not willing to pin, and your glue isn't up to the job, then buy better glue.

2) To put a model together I score both points, apply a small dab of superglue, take hold of both bit Firmly and press them together till the glue feels like bonding. If the bits of your model hurts to hold firmly maybe rethink it.

Alternatively, don't hold the model quite so firmly...

3) I see you got (insert artist) to paint your models to really show how great they look, wonderful! Yep, (insert artist) is great, super in fact...to bad I'm playing with friends who are almost are ready to put a a coat of primer on there models after having them for +6 months. How about rather then having the artist product one really great model. You work with them to come up with a way to paint your models quickly and with only a small amont of skill. You know, so I can play with army that's not white metal or gray plastic, hurts the feel of the game.

They did. They're called 'washes'.

You know, you could be a little bit more proactive about this. Try posting "Hey, guys, do you have any advice for doing a quick/simple paint job on [model X]?" in P&M and see what happens?

1) Pinning is the way to go. Honestly - I would prefer if they would skip the socket/pin cast on the miniature and just have two aligned sockets. Would make pinning that much easier having a starting point on the figure already.

That said, if I don't pin - I epoxy. Usually the viscosity of the epoxy is enough on its own to hold small parts, just a bit on a tooth pick at the joint, squeeze and give a quick once over with an old clay shaper to get any bad squeeze out off. Once dry, clean up with files. Very strong.

2) Get some rubber finger pads. We used to use them in the old days, when stuff was printed on paper

http://www.staples.com/Cosco-Rubber-Finger-Pads/product_SS272328

The rubber is soft enough that you don't loose tactile response, but thick enough to not get jabbed by pointy bits.

3) I would offer up one of the Foundry Painting books:

http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/books/painting-guide/kevin-dallimores-painting-and-modelling-guide-masterclass

Very quick method to a pretty good table top standard. Foundry covers pretty much the gamut from Naked Cave Men to Judge Dredd...so the book does as well. Steve Dean's Painting forum have a big following of people painting in that style for an online/free take on it.

4) Par for the course unfortunately. Older style miniatures, from older style companies have fewer problems than the newer stuff from new companies. Unfortunately, they also get ragged on by many people for not being dynamic enough. The upside is that they tend to be one part models, so you don't have to mess about with parts 1, 2 or 3.

5) I tend to agree. Some companies do better than others, but at the same time - strong also goes to the end user. At this point in my collecting, about 1/2 to 2/3 of my stuff come from the scale hobby side of things. You will often hear people say they are too delicate to play with, but I have never had any issues. I will replace certain things with something more durable from time to time (hair thin resin/plastic/pewter with brass of some form for example). I also pin or use epoxy for joints on resin and metal and solvent cement on plastic.

There is a lot that it would probably do well for miniature companies to think about, and to be honest most of them do. Larger parts (to a point) are easier to cast, molds last longer and there are fewer QC issues. However, like I mentioned...the new wargamers like limbs flailing around with bits going every which way. To sell to them, they sort of need to do what they are doing.

For my own work, I generally shoot to make line troops all one piece casts. Makes my life so much easier, especially when I need 100 grunts for a given army. It doesn't always work that way though (even when I am the one who is sculpting and casting them) so I try to make the parts as big as possible when I split them. Split at the waist, or at the shoulder as opposed to having smaller bits with smaller joint contact points. Heads are almost always separate for mine though - but that does allow me to use crazy hair/helmets while avoiding the mold line where I really don't want to have to clean any flashing. The head/neck joint is a pretty easy one to pin and glue though, so I don't mind (and I do two sockets to make alignment that much easier as well).

I should also mention that several years ago, I was putting together a few hundred 1/72 ancient Greeks. I had replaced their floppy spears with steel pins (each point hammered and filed into the appropriate leaf tip). Power went out, and as I stumbled about to grab a flash light, and in the process set my hand atop the phalanx of freshly sharpened steel pikes. Sometimes, it is nice to have floppy bits...

 Warplock wrote:
Dear miniature manufacturer,

Let me start off by saying that I love all the stuff I buy from you, and all this comes form a place of love. That being said, I see some trends and some old holdovers habits that really could be worked on.

1) 99% of your products are being put together with super glue and hope. Please produce you models with that in mind. But I can hear you say I should pin the models to have a strong...let me stop you there. There are maybe 200 true pinners left in the world and of those only 25 are breeding. NO ONE PINS UNLESS THEY ABSOLUTELY MUST( ok, some do).

Pin it...or use better glue...the options are there?

 Warplock wrote:
To put a model together I score both points, apply a small dab of superglue, take hold of both bit Firmly and press them together till the glue feels like bonding. If the bits of your model hurts to hold firmly maybe rethink it.

Find a way to hold it so that you don't hurt yourself? WOrks for me every time.

 Warplock wrote:
I see you got (insert artist) to paint your models to really show how great they look, wonderful! Yep, (insert artist) is great, super in fact...to bad I'm playing with friends who are almost are ready to put a a coat of primer on there models after having them for +6 months. How about rather then having the artist product one really great model. You work with them to come up with a way to paint your models quickly and with only a small amont of skill. You know, so I can play with army that's not white metal or gray plastic, hurts the feel of the game.

Spray cans, air brushes, washes....make like very easy... I have a mate who HATES painting, but doesnt like polaying with unpainted models...got himself an air brush....can smash out 20 gaunts for his nid army in a day.

 Warplock wrote:
Game pieces are toys, dolls in fact(there I said it). They will be tipped over, knock about, and (ugh) dropped. Please put time in thinking on how to make them a tough as possible. and no matter how cool you think that hair thin bit will make the model, please reconsider, most will end up be happier without it.

Be more careful with your game pieces, thats like emailing the monopoly people and telling them their notes rip too easily and their game pieces are too small and easy to lose....

1) Don't use superglue, use plastic glue.
2) Eat a teaspoon of cement and harden up a little bit
3) Let's not create Gumby brand models because some people have little or no skill - undercoat, prime in a base colour you want your army to look like, dip. You could paint 2,000 points in a day like that, and it doesn't even involve a brush.
4) In your opinion there is a game to be played. In my opinion, there is no game, there are only man dollies for people to paint and spend HOURS painting. Best part is, your version makes them less money - *I* am their target market, because I keep buying new stuff and keep buying paints rather than one set of models and a can of primer.
5) Again, sacrificing model detail to satisfy the needs of the lazy, clumsy and unskilled is easily the best trollbait I have ever seen.

6/10, made me reply

@AnomanderRake: I really wasn't looking to be proactive, just to vent.

@Sean_OBrien: thank you, My post really didn't warrant such a thoughtful reply.
Most of my pissness come from getting my self same old situations I do with my small play group. that is without thinking I promised to do some painting and it (once again) ballooned into something that's going take me much longer to do and I've already got them asking when there stuff may be done.

I have a feeling that this hobby may not be for you.

Well. here are a few things.

1. I pin, just about everything. All the time. I used not to and when you pick up a painted mini mid game and the arm falls off, its just no bueno.

2. I am putting together a PP Legion of Everblight army right now. Lots of spiky white metal, When holding it to pin it (see I brought it back) I use a thick paper towel. Works like a champ.

3. Painting is what it is. Some people do it, some dont. I paint for fun and stress relief so I don;t mind spending hours on it. To each their own I guess.

4. Proxy bases! they are a thing and fantastic. Need to get in a charge. Grab a proxy base. You will be amazed at how much more acurate your charges will be and you wont have to risk your nicely painted models on a teetering hill or against a rolling horde of dice etc.

We should really get a "club" together here on dakka for "True Pinners". If someone makes the banner I will use it proudly

I pin as needed, especially if I'm assembling two dissimilar materials. I'm currently working on an Ork Big Mek that I designed and found parts for, and it's got the base model, plenty of kitbashing parts, a resin head, significant amounts of greenstuff and two metal pins. The greenstuff points are mostly joins between pieces and there is also superglue sandwiching each side of the greenstuff. Even some simple kitbashing is better supplemented with a pin for assembly work so it stays together. I used a nob body to build a big runtherd and I swapped the big choppa head of his weapon for a grabba stick head and that needed a pin to make sure it held since there was so little surface area for the glue to bond.

Plastic glue.

Winter wrote:
I have a feeling that this hobby may not be for you.

/Thread. Patience is the foundation before anything else painting and modelling wise

Are you talking about Corvus Belli?

1) 99% of your products are being put together with super glue and hope. Please produce you models with that in mind. But I can hear you say I should pin the models to have a strong...let me stop you there. There are maybe 200 true pinners left in the world and of those only 25 are breeding. NO ONE PINS UNLESS THEY ABSOLUTELY MUST( ok, some do).

Better glue, use additional support like Green Stuff or pin? Or just don't drop your models?

2) To put a model together I score both points, apply a small dab of superglue, take hold of both bit Firmly and press them together till the glue feels like bonding. If the bits of your model hurts to hold firmly maybe rethink it.

Maybe rethink how you firmly press something? I can think of at least 3 ways of doing just that the moment I typed this.

3) I see you got (insert artist) to paint your models to really show how great they look, wonderful! Yep, (insert artist) is great, super in fact...to bad I'm playing with friends who are almost are ready to put a a coat of primer on there models after having them for +6 months. How about rather then having the artist product one really great model. You work with them to come up with a way to paint your models quickly and with only a small amont of skill. You know, so I can play with army that's not white metal or gray plastic, hurts the feel of the game.

So you would rather have substandard paintjobs on product shots? Product shots are made to show the model in the best light possible so people are enticed to buy it. Showing it painted "with small amount of skill" is the opposite of enticing. It's like trying to sell a dancecompetition by showing the really crappy dancers.

5) Game pieces are toys, dolls in fact(there I said it). They will be tipped over, knock about, and (ugh) dropped. Please put time in thinking on how to make them a tough as possible. and no matter how cool you think that hair thin bit will make the model, please reconsider, most will end up be happier without it.

Toughness of a model could also mean sacrificing aesthetic value (the dynamic pose and/or details for example). Sure it's possible to have both but it'll end up same-y.

Maybe pin your models so they don't break when you drop them, amirite?

The thing that stood out in my mind is that you use superglue yet you have problems firmly holding your models... if you're using superglue, you don't have to firmly hold your models, you gently hold them for 3 to 5 seconds and it should be fine unless it's metal. Metal is always going to be hard to work with, it's the nature of metal.

If you're having to hold models for a long time with superglue you're either using crappy superglue or you have giant gaps with very little material actually joining them. If it's the former, buy better glue. If it's the latter, try mixing a small ball of greenstuff and apply superglue to one side of the joint, place the ball of greenstuff in the joint, then apply just a tiny bit more superglue to the other side of the joint and smoosh them together. The superglue will cure fast, so you only have to hold them for a few seconds, the greenstuff will fill all the gaps so the superglue can join well. The only trick is to make sure you use a small enough amount of superglue and a small enough amount of greenstuff that it doesn't all smoosh out of the joint and create a mess (a small bit smooshing out you can usually smooth out if you do it quickly). It'll take a day to cure properly, but it should hold after a few seconds.