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I know this topic has been done to death, but I had a train of though I haven't seen discussed yet (though I could be wrong). Anyway I was thinking...
(I would cite pages, but I have the digital edition)
Under Overwatch. "An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on." (emphasis mine)

If we go to the Shooting Phase, all the normal rules for shooting are presented for us. I have listed all the rules and sub-rules.
Nominate a unit to shoot - who can shoot?
Choose a target - line of sight
Select a weapon - check range, which models can fire
Roll to hit - moving and shooting, snap shots
Roll to wound - multiple toughness values
Allocate wounds and remove casualties
Select another weapon

Rinse and repeat

How can people claim that the multi-tracker and monstrous creature special rules are normal rules for shooting? We only have permission to use the normal rules for shooting.

Any lets see what you guys can make of this idea.

It has been gone over, the problem is one of the rules that is missing from that list is the restriction for only being able to fire one weapon.

Both that rule and Multi-Tracker/MC are in the same boat, so you either fire all of your weapons, or you fire the number of weapons you can fire normally in the shooting phase.

Cool so using those rules you have posted lets say I have 5 tac marines each armed with bolter, bolt pistol and Krak grenades. The first weapon I choose is bolter all 5 marines fire. Can I then choose bolt pistol and fire again with all 5 marines? Could I then choose krak grenades and fire with all 5 marines. Using what you have classified as the normal shooting rules explain to me why that is wrong?

My brother pointed this out to me as I didn't see it.

"Select a weapon" under" which models can fire" it states,
"Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase."

So no you can not shoot bolters, bolt pistols and throw grenades in the same phase. Also notice that it refers to phase and not shooting phase.
So we do have permission for models to fire more than once and the restriction to only fire once during overwatch.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool so using those rules you have posted lets say I have 5 tac marines each armed with bolter, bolt pistol and Krak grenades. The first weapon I choose is bolter all 5 marines fire. Can I then choose bolt pistol and fire again with all 5 marines? Could I then choose krak grenades and fire with all 5 marines. Using what you have classified as the normal shooting rules explain to me why that is wrong?

Well as far as the tactical Marines go they can only fire one weapon each in the regular shooting phase so they would do the same in the overwatch phase as well.

As far as theTau's multi-tracker rule goes it is a SPECIAL RULE which overrides the regular rules for shooting. Saying that you can't use multi-tracker in overwatch because its not regular shooting rules is the same as saying you can't use it during the regular shooting phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no I don't play Tau.

If we look at the Shooting Phase rules, it says that 'typically, a model may only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase'. So normally, models fire one weapon and that is it.

If we look at the Multi-Tracker:
Multi-Tracker (Codex:Tau, pg 69)

"A model with a Multi-Tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting Phase".

From this, we can state that a model is given permission to fire an extra weapon in the Shooting Phas, as it is given permission to do so from specific rules allowing it to.

However, at no point does the Multi-Tracker specifically state that 'models equipped with a Multi-Tracker may fire an additional weapon in the Assault Phase'. Therefore, you do not have permission to fire an extra weapon during Overwatch, since (as the Overwatch rules state, see above) it is a shooting attack resolved in the Assault Phase.

Overwatch:
"An overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves, and so on."

 Frozocrone wrote:
If we look at the Shooting Phase rules, it says that 'typically, a model may only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase'. So normally, models fire one weapon and that is it.

If we look at the Multi-Tracker:
Multi-Tracker (Codex:Tau, pg 69)

"A model with a Multi-Tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting Phase".

From this, we can state that a model is given permission to fire an extra weapon in the Shooting Phas, as it is given permission to do so from specific rules allowing it to.

However, at no point does the Multi-Tracker specifically state that 'models equipped with a Multi-Tracker may fire an additional weapon in the Assault Phase'. Therefore, you do not have permission to fire an extra weapon during Overwatch, since (as the Overwatch rules state, see above) it is a shooting attack resolved in the Assault Phase.

I see your point, and I agree with it. So to sum it up.

"Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase."

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase

There is the restriction to only fire one weapon in any given phase of the turn.

same phase

We know there a number of phases per turn.
Movement
Psychic
Shooting
Assault

although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more.

This means with permission a model can fire additional weapons.
Monstrous creatures have permission to fire up to two of their weapons in the shooting phase
Multi-Tracker states, that a model can fire an additional weapon each shooting phase
Vehicles have permission to shoot all their weapons in the shooting phase

So if we looked at this on a per phase basis for a monstrous creature:
A monstrous creature can fire,
1 weapon in the movement phase
1 weapon in the psychic phase
2 weapons in the shooting phase
1 weapon in the assault phase.

So in conclusion, without specific permission to fire multiple weapons in the assault phase, a model can only ever fire one weapon in overwatch.

That sounds like a pretty clear cut RAW argument lol but I could be wrong

Yeah, that's pretty much my interpretation. It's worded badly (which is why this debate comes up).

It has to be said that I've always allowed Multi-Tracker units and MC's to fire two weapons in Overwatch and Shooting Phase only. It's tiring having a rules debate over something as unclear as this when you're halfway through a game.

Well now that I've looked into it, I don't think it's worded badly, people just argue any point they can to try get advantages. And I'm a Tau player lol

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase

There is the restriction to only fire one weapon in any given phase of the turn.

That's not a restriction.

although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more.

This means with permission a model can fire additional weapons.
Monstrous creatures have permission to fire up to two of their weapons in the shooting phase
Multi-Tracker states, that a model can fire an additional weapon each shooting phase
Vehicles have permission to shoot all their weapons in the shooting phase

It's awesome that you completely ignore the Overwatch rules to attempt to prove your point.

The rules for multi-tracker specifically grants you permission to shoot an additional weapon in the shooting phase.

An overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase)

Rules for overwatch specifically state that overwatch is a shooting attack that does not happen in the shooting phase. You cannot treat it like a shooting attack in the shooting phase (to gain benefit from a multi-tracker), because the rules specifically tell you not to.
Seems crystal clear to me that you cannot shoot 2 weapons in overwatch because you are not shooting in the shooting phase.

rigeld2 wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase

There is the restriction to only fire one weapon in any given phase of the turn.

That's not a restriction.

although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more.

This means with permission a model can fire additional weapons.
Monstrous creatures have permission to fire up to two of their weapons in the shooting phase
Multi-Tracker states, that a model can fire an additional weapon each shooting phase
Vehicles have permission to shoot all their weapons in the shooting phase

It's awesome that you completely ignore the Overwatch rules to attempt to prove your point.

How is that not a restriction?

Still? After two years, this still comes up?

Nilok has it correct:

 Nilok wrote:
It has been gone over, the problem is one of the rules that is missing from that list is the restriction for only being able to fire one weapon.

Both that rule and Multi-Tracker/MC are in the same boat, so you either fire all of your weapons, or you fire the number of weapons you can fire normally in the shooting phase.

Why are people so desperate to stop Tau from using their multitrackers? Not a single person on Dakka even suggested that a MC couldn't fire both its weapons in overwatch until the Tau dex hit in 6th. Not 1 discussion on that subject everyone accepted that MCs fired as they normally do when making a shooting attack.

So now the argument is that special rules don't count when Overwatching. Awesome so do the following rules not work when overwatching? If they do workwhy arr you treating them differently?

Graviton
Haywire
Rending
Master Crafted
Twin linked
Melta
Gauss

Also given that MCs firing twice rules are in the Unit Type rules I assume rules found there don't count also like for instance the entire shooting at vehicles rules. Are you telling me it is impossible to shoot at vehicles when they charge you? Combat Walkers just got a buff. Also can Walkers fire all their weapons when they overwatch? As their permission also only states "Shooting Phase".

As for this being a restriction:

"Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase"

This is not a restriction as it doesn't tell you who it applies to and when. The restriction on how many weapons you can fure is found on page 41:

"Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same shooting phase"

Why would you apply this and not the multitracker rule?

I always assumed that they multi trackers do not work in overwatch but you guys have made some pretty convincing arguments

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on."

The RaW covers itself. The emphasis on "all the normal rules" covers range, line of sight, cover saves. 'And so on' is basically "all the other rules".

Overwatch works exactly in the same way as a Snap shooting attack. Only difference is choice of target and Template weapons. The rest is the same.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase

There is the restriction to only fire one weapon in any given phase of the turn.

That's not a restriction.

although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more.

This means with permission a model can fire additional weapons.
Monstrous creatures have permission to fire up to two of their weapons in the shooting phase
Multi-Tracker states, that a model can fire an additional weapon each shooting phase
Vehicles have permission to shoot all their weapons in the shooting phase

It's awesome that you completely ignore the Overwatch rules to attempt to prove your point.

How is that not a restriction?

Because it says "Typically" while not giving a boundary. It's informational, not a restriction.

In addition, that's a rule locked into the Shooting Phase. If you're in the Assault phase, why are you referencing that rule?

rigeld2 wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase

There is the restriction to only fire one weapon in any given phase of the turn.

That's not a restriction.

although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more.

This means with permission a model can fire additional weapons.
Monstrous creatures have permission to fire up to two of their weapons in the shooting phase
Multi-Tracker states, that a model can fire an additional weapon each shooting phase
Vehicles have permission to shoot all their weapons in the shooting phase

It's awesome that you completely ignore the Overwatch rules to attempt to prove your point.

How is that not a restriction?

Because it says "Typically" while not giving a boundary. It's informational, not a restriction.

In addition, that's a rule locked into the Shooting Phase. If you're in the Assault phase, why are you referencing that rule?

Because Overwatch is a shooting attack that occurs during the Assault phase.... Note how generic the use of "in the same phase" is in that description, it's almost as if they had Overwatch in mind when they wrote it....naw, that's giving the rabid monkeys, banging on keyboards at GW too much credit.

 agnosto wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase

There is the restriction to only fire one weapon in any given phase of the turn.

That's not a restriction.

although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more.

This means with permission a model can fire additional weapons.
Monstrous creatures have permission to fire up to two of their weapons in the shooting phase
Multi-Tracker states, that a model can fire an additional weapon each shooting phase
Vehicles have permission to shoot all their weapons in the shooting phase

It's awesome that you completely ignore the Overwatch rules to attempt to prove your point.

How is that not a restriction?

Because it says "Typically" while not giving a boundary. It's informational, not a restriction.

In addition, that's a rule locked into the Shooting Phase. If you're in the Assault phase, why are you referencing that rule?

Because Overwatch is a shooting attack that occurs during the Assault phase.... Note how generic the use of "in the same phase" is in that description, it's almost as if they had Overwatch in mind when they wrote it....naw, that's giving the rabid monkeys, banging on keyboards at GW too much credit.

So why are you referencing that rule for "and so on" and not the MC/MultiTracker rule? The actual restriction says a model cannot fire more than one weapon in the shooting phase. Yet you're attempting to apply that to a non-shooting phase action.

So you agree shooting phase rules apply correct?

Let's apply some logic (I know, it's a stretch when talking rules created by GW):

1. Shooting attacks take place during the Shooting phase.
Except when allowed by Overwatch.

2. Overwatch rules state that all rules pertaining to shooting apply except for the few mentioned (permissive ruleset).

3. Certain models are allowed to fire more than one weapon per phase. Note, not "per shooting phase" but "in any given phase."

4. Multi-Tracker allows the model to fire an additional weapon during the shooting phase.

5. Overwatch rules state that all shooting rules apply, except for specific rules mentioned.

6. Multi-tracker is produces a shooting rule affect.

7. Multi-tracker's shooting rule affect is not listed in Overwatch as an exception to the all rules apply permission.

8. A model equipped with a multi-tracker is able to fire an additional weapon during an Overwatch action. The same applies to MCs.


In my experience I have never heard a real, non-internet, person argue that this stuff worked any other way. That said, you can play this however you like, of course, because GW says we can play their rules however we like or just make up whatever rules we want (kind of makes YMDC pointless).

Ultimately, play how people in your area play and don't worry about what people on the internet think because none of our opinions matter anyway. If people in your area can't decide how this works, decide with your opponent before you start to play or, dice off if you can't agree.

If GW would actually give two craps about rules-writing this wouldn't be an issue but since they prefer that we "forge the narrative" go ahead and forge away.