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I'm about to buy 30 of either Shield or Great weapon Grave Guard from someone. Can't afford both. Which one do you think works better? I'm running a horde with vamps to throw in more units, and I'm gonna put a Wight with a banner in the GG's and upgrade him to stomp serious face.

So... Shield, or GW?

 Pyeatt wrote:
I'm about to buy 30 of either Shield or Great weapon Grave Guard from someone. Can't afford both. Which one do you think works better? I'm running a horde with vamps to throw in more units, and I'm gonna put a Wight with a banner in the GG's and upgrade him to stomp serious face.

So... Shield, or GW?

Great Weapons.
4+ and parry and not kill much, or 5+ and totally wreck face. Not much of a contest. Now, if you've got a lore of metal vampire, giving the block scaly skin, +1 to hit and armor piercing makes the shields viable, but that's a pretty off the wall build.

-Matt

Great weapons. Period. Unless things change dramatically in 9th edition there's really no reason to bring the HW/S version.

Reason? Their role is better fulfilled by other things. HWSguard are more of an anvil than anything, as T4 4+6++ is rather durable. With Lore of Vampires they're able to be raised at a fair clip as well. Unfortunately against anything killy they'll still struggle to push wounds through, and too much is immune to KB these days. You'd be better off with crypt horrors if you're looking for a good anvil.

GWguard are a hammer unit, as with S6 they can wreck face. Unfortunately they're also hitting after everything, meaning they're prone to taking lots of wounds before they get to strike. That means you need to figure out how to keep enough bodies around to strike. Most people will tell you to do that by taking extra bodies. A horde of 40 is the conventional wisdom. That way you can lose 10 before you're losing attacks.

I disagree. Nobody is dumb enough to throw something into the front of a GG horde that's actually going to bear the full weight of those attacks. They're either going to hit you in the flank, or they're going to hit you with something like a frostheart phoenix or demon prince with narrow frontage that's unlikely to take many wounds. OR they'll hit you with so much stuff that they'll blow through half the unit before you get to strike.

Thus from experience I've found that hording up is a waste. I would much rather go 7-wide with 32 or so bodies, and throw a WK with the NS into the front rank to mitigate things like character buses crashing into the front. Note that 31-35 is easy to do with just 30 models if you make clever use of unit fillers (namely using regiment bases or 40mm bases, and spreading out 2-3 models on them, using fewer models to fill the same footprint).

You'll also need a couple big infantry bricks to run on either side and protect its flanks. GG don't mix well with ghouls...they go better with a unit of 40 or so skeletons on either flank to take charges and provide counter-charge opportunities.

Hope that helps. I will of course mention that the GG brick still isn't exactly the most competitive build. It's really slow and cumbersome, even 7-wide, and bleeds CR like a stuck pig.

I've got plenty of skeletons.

You guys are a couple of saints! Much thanks!

1/2 & 1/2.

If you want GW (which you currently do) just put the GW guys in front. If next edition gives a boost to HW&Shield, put them in front.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
1/2 & 1/2.

If you want GW (which you currently do) just put the GW guys in front. If next edition gives a boost to HW&Shield, put them in front.

This is what I plan on doing. I've got 20 Mantic Revenants. I'm going to bolster the unit with some real grave guard with Great weapons and have options. Best of both worlds.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
1/2 & 1/2.

If you want GW (which you currently do) just put the GW guys in front. If next edition gives a boost to HW&Shield, put them in front.

This is what I plan on doing. I've got 20 Mantic Revenants. I'm going to bolster the unit with some real grave guard with Great weapons and have options. Best of both worlds.

Not a half bad idea.

I'll note that, if you have any intention of playing Undead Legions, I am of the firm opinion that TG are a better choice. They're a bit more expensive with halberds, and a bit less durable with LA instead of HA in combat (against shooting they have shields so it's the same). However striking at I3 makes them better in my book, even at S5 (though give them the razor standard and it's functionally the same thing). That's the same speed as most humans, and faster than lizardmen/dwarfs/ogres/many mounts/most other undead. You can also buff them with light magic / corpse carts / etc. to make them strike even faster.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
1/2 & 1/2.

If you want GW (which you currently do) just put the GW guys in front. If next edition gives a boost to HW&Shield, put them in front.

This is what I plan on doing. I've got 20 Mantic Revenants. I'm going to bolster the unit with some real grave guard with Great weapons and have options. Best of both worlds.

Great idea! I checked those out on the mantic website and I gotta say, not bad mini's given the gold standard gw sets. Really if you're using the UL rules you can make a pretty nasty grave guard deathstar (gravestar) similar to what VC players could bring to the table back in the glory days of 7th haha. And another vote for GW's because even though they have killing blow, with the predominance of MC in most people's meta, that just won't cut it. Also being able to resurrect them is a certainly a great boon and makes survivability not as critical.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
1/2 & 1/2.

If you want GW (which you currently do) just put the GW guys in front. If next edition gives a boost to HW&Shield, put them in front.

This is what I plan on doing. I've got 20 Mantic Revenants. I'm going to bolster the unit with some real grave guard with Great weapons and have options. Best of both worlds.

Not a half bad idea.

I'll note that, if you have any intention of playing Undead Legions, I am of the firm opinion that TG are a better choice. They're a bit more expensive with halberds, and a bit less durable with LA instead of HA in combat (against shooting they have shields so it's the same). However striking at I3 makes them better in my book, even at S5 (though give them the razor standard and it's functionally the same thing). That's the same speed as most humans, and faster than lizardmen/dwarfs/ogres/many mounts/most other undead. You can also buff them with light magic / corpse carts / etc. to make them strike even faster.

I hadn't even considered it. You're probably right, but I'm not in love with the Tomb Guard models, so that pretty well clinches that.

 docdoom77 wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
1/2 & 1/2.

If you want GW (which you currently do) just put the GW guys in front. If next edition gives a boost to HW&Shield, put them in front.

This is what I plan on doing. I've got 20 Mantic Revenants. I'm going to bolster the unit with some real grave guard with Great weapons and have options. Best of both worlds.

Not a half bad idea.

I'll note that, if you have any intention of playing Undead Legions, I am of the firm opinion that TG are a better choice. They're a bit more expensive with halberds, and a bit less durable with LA instead of HA in combat (against shooting they have shields so it's the same). However striking at I3 makes them better in my book, even at S5 (though give them the razor standard and it's functionally the same thing). That's the same speed as most humans, and faster than lizardmen/dwarfs/ogres/many mounts/most other undead. You can also buff them with light magic / corpse carts / etc. to make them strike even faster.

I hadn't even considered it. You're probably right, but I'm not in love with the Tomb Guard models, so that pretty well clinches that.

You've got 30 models. Give 10 GW, 10 shields and swords, and 10 shields and halberds converted out of those extra GW. Best of all 3 worlds

These 30 were coming from someone else on bartertown. He was only selling either 30 hw/s or 30 gw.

 Pyeatt wrote:
These 30 were coming from someone else on bartertown. He was only selling either 30 hw/s or 30 gw.

Guess it doesn't matter considering you are selling all your Fantasy models though, right?

alex87 wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
These 30 were coming from someone else on bartertown. He was only selling either 30 hw/s or 30 gw.

Guess it doesn't matter considering you are selling all your Fantasy models though, right?

Oh come on now, no need for that, keep that in the other thread. Pyeatt, if you do decide to keep them and must choose, GW would be better in the current meta.