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After the recent "outbreak" of the Patriots (NFL team) and their "deflategate" it got me thinking bigger picture, and how we deal with people who cheat, or are even perceived to have cheated, and possibly what should happen as punishment, etc.


Now, we have instances, like "Spygate" where the Patriots staff/coaches gained an "advantage" through spying on other teams. Or this "deflategate" where the ball as not up to appropriate air pressure. Neither of these are a result of player/participant cheating (and indeed, in the case of deflated balls, apparently a guy from another team has pointed out a fallacy in the NFLs scheme to check the air pressure)

Rewind back a bit, and we have guys like Floyd Landis and other cyclists (actually... we may as well say the sport of cycling) tested positive for PEDs, and had his wins vacated/awarded to the next in line.

A bit further back from that, you have the now infamous Lance Armstrong, who never once tested positive for PEDs, neither primary sample, or secondary sample (or, IIRC, his primary tested positive ONCE, but the secondary sample, which really is the same sample, just segregated prior to testing, came back negative) has had his Tour de France wins stripped many years after the fact, after a lengthy investigation which some would call a witch hunt (and revealed nothing, until he FINALLY admitted to doing what the rest of the field was doing... only better).



Now, there are obvious answers to why players use steroids/PEDs, there are obvious answers to why coaches/team administrators try to spy/steal to get a mental edge.... But why are reactions to people being caught so wildly different? It definitely seems like, some places are actually trying to stamp out cheating (ie, cycling because they realized if they didn't clean up, they'd cease to exist), while others merely play lip service to those who break the rules (removing draft picks for NFL teams)

I guess what I'm ultimately trying to discuss... is should there be some sort of "universal" metric for punishing and dealing with people/organizations who are caught cheating?

Ban the offenders from the sport. Plain and simple.

Let me have the Offenders and I can take them through "School of Soldiering" for a week.

 djones520 wrote:
Ban the offenders from the sport. Plain and simple.

^This.

Otherwise, the integrity of the games will be called into question.

It's not "deflategate"

It's Ballghazi.

 cincydooley wrote:
It's not "deflategate"

It's Ballghazi.

Get a grip Cincy

 djones520 wrote:
Ban the offenders from the sport. Plain and simple.

I think that's all well and good... but do we honestly think that in this era of money and how much of it can be generated.... that a league like the NFL would seriously ban Bill Bellichick from the sport for life?


I am rather against taking action on "allegations" as cycling did with Lance Armstrong, but I am in favor of vacating wins, especially if they are championship games/matches etc... Spygate was what... 2004 or so?? I wouldn't be against vacating that SB victory, but I would be against declaring whoever they beat as the new champion (as seems to happen in track or cycling, and other individual sports) on top of the loss of draft picks.

I think if you look at how the NCAA handles team violations, such as USC having many wins from 2004/2005 vacated, as well as vacating their BCS championship for one player's violation of "student athlete policy".... not only were wins vacated, but the NCAA stripped scholarships down, which hurt the program for quite a few years.... It seems to send a bit of a stronger message to me. Not only are "we" gonna take wins/titles away from you, but we're going to strip much of your ability to recruit/bring new blood in to the program. Seems like that would very much work for the NFL as well.



I mean, obviously, if it's an individual failure/cheating, such as PEDs or similar, then you can point to a single source and get rid of them, but I think it's a bit harder when you're looking at something like a recruiting violation (for college), or "stealing playbooks", or "reading pitch signs/ sign stealing" when you necessarily have to have a "system" in place and involve more than one person, especially if it isn't being done by a player.

 Jihadin wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It's not "deflategate"

It's Ballghazi.

Get a grip Cincy

Relax, bro. It was a joke. A fairly fun one, too.

Well it Should be a simple ban the WAAC but yeah not with the kinda money they generate.

Infact all they will do is Fine and move on.

 Desubot wrote:
Well it Should be a simple ban the WAAC but yeah not with the kinda money they generate.

Infact all they will do is Fine and move on.

which is, IMO, the wrong answer.... Especially when the "powers that be" (Goodell, Bettman, Selig (if he's still alive, and running baseball), and that dude who's running the NBA) make it fairly public the scheme for fines.... Organizations are now able to say, "ohh, we'll get fined 10,000 dollars if they catch us filming this practice... Call Bob from accounting, and tell him to include that in the budget"

The number of friends of friends on my FB feed, whining on about this out of one side of their mouths and yet also demanding Penn State's reinstatement with full honors and bloody JoPat's statue returned to former glory with the other, is both priceless and sneerworthy.

What child abuse cover-up can really compare to deflated balls...

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It's not "deflategate"

It's Ballghazi.

Get a grip Cincy

Relax, bro. It was a joke. A fairly fun one, too.

You failed me

 Jihadin wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It's not "deflategate"

It's Ballghazi.

Get a grip Cincy

Relax, bro. It was a joke. A fairly fun one, too.

You failed me

Both of you... don't get your balls twisted.

 whembly wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It's not "deflategate"

It's Ballghazi.

Get a grip Cincy

Relax, bro. It was a joke. A fairly fun one, too.

You failed me

Both of you... don't get your balls twisted.

Cincy dropping the ball on that one.

 cincydooley wrote:
It's not "deflategate"

It's Ballghazi.

I think I prefer deflater-mess.

 Desubot wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It's not "deflategate"

It's Ballghazi.

Get a grip Cincy

Relax, bro. It was a joke. A fairly fun one, too.

You failed me

Both of you... don't get your balls twisted.

Cincy dropping the ball on that one.

Slipped right by him like a grease pig skin

http://www.sportspickle.com/2015/01/bill-belichick-vows-swift-justice-whoever-failed-deflate-12th-football

Bill Belichick vows “swift justice” for whoever failed to deflate 12th football

New England Patriots head coach Bill Belichick said today that he is just as upset and angry as everyone else is over the latest news about his team, and will make sure there is “swift justice for those responsible.”

“I was very angry to hear that 11 of our 12 footballs in the AFC Championship Game were under-inflated,” said the coach, spitting out his words in an angry growl at a press conference today. “I gave explicit instructions that all of our footballs were to be deflated by exactly two pounds. I will find who failed to deflate the twelfth ball and they will be fired. I guarantee you that.”

Patriots owner Robert Kraft said he has “complete confidence” in Belichick.

“This man cheats with integrity, and I won’t let anyone say otherwise,” said the owner. “His attention to duplicitous detail is unparalleled. I don’t know what exactly happened to cause one of our footballs to be legal, but Bill will get to the bottom of it and we will move forward as an organization to better and more comprehensive illegal activities.”

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell said he expecting a quick and thorough explanation from the team.

“The integrity of the league is at stake. Again,” said the commissioner. “I expect an excuse from the Patriots that is PR-driven and palatable to the majority of our fans by the end of the day.”

What I personally think should happen is that the team found cheating forfeit the game, or have it stripped from them after. In addition anyone caught cheating should be banned from the game for life and fined heavily. The current penalty of losing a draft pick is not sufficient disincentive.

Listening to this on the radio on the way in from work I have to agree with what I heard; there will be an exhaustive investigation, there will be a clear chain of custody established of who had what ball and when, the regulations will be quoted, hands will be wrung, and nothing will happen.

As an aside why did the officials not notice the lack of pressure in the balls given that they would have had hands on during the game?

I doubt much will happen with this. Even the guys in Vegas have the odds of some meaningful penalty being slim to none.

Create a version of the sport where PEDs are actively encouraged and let them filter into that. To echo the comments of a comedian I can't remember the name of, watching someone run the 100m in 10 seconds is all well and good, but I'd pay to see someone do it in 1.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
Create a version of the sport where PEDs are actively encouraged and let them filter into that. To echo the comments of a comedian I can't remember the name of, watching someone run the 100m in 10 seconds is all well and good, but I'd pay to see someone do it in 1.

That definitely sounds like something from mock the week, I think it might have been Andy (The bald one) who said, drawing a blank on his surnme

 Jihadin wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It's not "deflategate"

It's Ballghazi.

Get a grip Cincy

Relax, bro. It was a joke. A fairly fun one, too.

You failed me

Both of you... don't get your balls twisted.

Cincy dropping the ball on that one.

Slipped right by him like a grease pig skin

American football doesn't use a ball. That's why sensible people call it hand egg.

 Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
Create a version of the sport where PEDs are actively encouraged and let them filter into that. To echo the comments of a comedian I can't remember the name of, watching someone run the 100m in 10 seconds is all well and good, but I'd pay to see someone do it in 1.

That definitely sounds like something from mock the week, I think it might have been Andy (The bald one) who said, drawing a blank on his surnme

Parsons, and I think you may be right.

I say just make steroids mandatory. Would make sports a lot more interesting.

 Envy89 wrote:
I say just make steroids mandatory. Would make sports a lot more interesting.

Add blunt and edge weapons to

Watching professional sports to me is about as interesting as watching paint dry. However, if the players were absolute freaks of nature that might change. I'd like to see 400 lb huge hulk-monsters engaged in professional boxing. I'd like to see a mutated freak with 5 foot long arms playing short stop in baseball. I'd like to see basketball players who can jump 20 feet to dunk the ball.

In short: give up testing. You're never going to catch them all, and only the "tier 1 bros" are going to have access to the best stuff that you can't detect. Level the playing field - let everyone juice their eyeballs out. These guys are paid an inordinate amount of money to do gak that I used to do for fun when I was 12. Health risks? Who cares? Pro bodybuilding doesn't pay nearly as well, and those guys are basically running on enanthate.

While I can't speak to the sports culture in the U.S. it is taken pretty seriously down here. A few years ago, we had one of our rugby teams be convicted of running a second set of books for player salaries (as each team has a set amount it can spend on players, a salary cap so to speak) and after a whistleblower dobbed them in and an investigation conducted, the club running the team ended up admitting to it. This all took place in a 5 year period. (started in 2005 iirc, was discovered in 2010)

What was the response of the sport's governing body you ask? They were as follows:
They were stripped of their two major premierships earned during that time
They were stripped of their two minor premierships earned during that time
They were told they were going to finish the 2010 season dead last (keep in mind there was still about 3/4 of the season to go)
They were fined AU$1.689 million
Due to a report on the investigation conducted in 2011, they were later also stripped of the 2010 World Club Challenge cup.

Apparently it was the harshest penalty ever delivered in world sport at the time. Keep also in mind, that in the sports 102 years of organised history at the time, no team had ever had any titles stripped from them.

You can read about the full thing here if you want.

What do you guys think of that as a response to cheating?

"Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat."
-Some Guy with a receding hairline.

This is professional sports right? Cheat away. Give special awards for creative cheating, with sub categories like: opposing intelligence; better living through medicine; and best felony.

If a sport has rules, and charges people to see it in person or on tv via charging media companies those rules should be followed

If an individual (player/coach/etc) cheat ban them for a duration dependent on the perceived offense

and fine them either a significant part of (or entire salary) over the period in question.... They were clearly NOT doing the job for which they were being paid

for occasions where a team itself has cheated (fiddled salary caps, spied on opponents outside of the allowed levels etc) they should be fined either a significant part (or entire) income over the period in question and thrown out of whatever league they are in

make them work their way back up as if they were a new team starting out assuming there is a progressive league structure.

In cases (like American football) where there isn't such a structure they should have to fork over a significant portion of their total revenue to the other teams in the league for 5-10 years

 djones520 wrote:
Ban the offenders from the sport. Plain and simple.

At the very barest minimum, I think they should forfeit the game.

To be fair, Lance Armstrong also turned out to be a colossal prick.

Anyway, ban offenders, end of.