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Trying to understand a few things. People over all seem to think MSV at all levels was nerfed a bit? Not understanding how as it seems super good to me.

Also the question is Zero V smoke says no level of MSV can see through it. It is treated as a zero visibility zone.

MSV2 says you can shoot through zero vis zones with no penalty. Page 139.

Nimbus Grenades are now the new (weakerish) zero V smoke now yea? Only -3 BS and -1 B but can still shoot through.

Yeah, they chose some bad wording with Zero Vis Smoke.

But basically, the Zero Vis Smoke is smoke that specifically blocks MSV.

Units also get to do something in ARO back when someone shoots at them through smoke, which was a common tactic to toss out a bunch of smoke, then have guys with visors shoot through it at enemies without visors.

Like Vertrucio said it just badly named it should of been called some like Craff Smoke, with fluff along the lines of "small reflective material in the smoke block any form of detection".

There's not much of a conflict.

The natural evolution of the traditional Smoke Ammunition, Zero-V is totally impenetrable to all modern optical and sensor systems. The Zero-V Smoke Special Ammunition works as Smoke Ammunition, but establishes a Zero Visibility Zone which cannot be penetrated by any level of Multispectral Visor.

It says it's treated as a Zero Visibility Zone with the special qualifier that it works even against MSV. If you don't have MSV2, it's treated as a Zero-Visibility Zone because the rules say so. If you do have MSV2+, it explicitly says that it's still treated as a Zero-Visibility Zone.

The issue is pg 140 of N3 says MSV 2 sees through zero v zones with no negative. So the rules contradict eachother. Feel it needs a FAQ. Why states its a zero v zone if the MSV can see through zero v zones

str00dles1 wrote:
The issue is pg 140 of N3 says MSV 2 sees through zero v zones with no negative. So the rules contradict eachother. Feel it needs a FAQ. Why states its a zero v zone if the MSV can see through zero v zones

As we said it just a bad name, but it is right there in the rules for Zero-V Smoke so no need for a FAQ, as there is no contradict. Becouse Zero-V Zones are not the same as Zreo-V Smoke.

From the Wiki

Zero-V Smoke Special Ammunition

The natural evolution of the traditional Smoke Ammunition, Zero-V is totally impenetrable to all modern optical and sensor systems. The Zero-V Smoke Special Ammunition works as Smoke Ammunition, but establishes a Zero Visibility Zone which cannot be penetrated by any level of Multispectral Visor.

From PG 139 N3

MULTISPECTRAL
VISOR LEVEL 2
AUTOMATIC EQUIPMENT
Obligatory
EFFECTS
»»Additionally, it allows the user to draw LoF through Zero
Visibility Zones, and ignore the -6 MOD imposed by those
Zones on BS Attacks.

Wording or not, it says right there MSV2 draws fire though Zero vis zones. And The grenades create Zero V zones. The issue is it also says no level of MSV can pen it. This is where it contradicts right what it can and cant do, I dont understand how this doesent need FAQed

str00dles1 wrote:
From the Wiki

Zero-V Smoke Special Ammunition

The natural evolution of the traditional Smoke Ammunition, Zero-V is totally impenetrable to all modern optical and sensor systems. The Zero-V Smoke Special Ammunition works as Smoke Ammunition, but establishes a Zero Visibility Zone which cannot be penetrated by any level of Multispectral Visor.

From PG 139 N3

MULTISPECTRAL
VISOR LEVEL 2
AUTOMATIC EQUIPMENT
Obligatory
EFFECTS
»»Additionally, it allows the user to draw LoF through Zero
Visibility Zones, and ignore the -6 MOD imposed by those
Zones on BS Attacks.

Wording or not, it says right there MSV2 draws fire though Zero vis zones. And The grenades create Zero V zones. The issue is it also says no level of MSV can pen it. This is where it contradicts right what it can and cant do, I dont understand how this doesent need FAQed

If they rewrite HS we see if the wording stays the same .

But, lets look at what you posted, you do see the part in Zero-V Smoke rule that says ALL Levels of MSV. They are 2 different rules and nothing in either is contradict, they are stating what each rule does. A rule that trumps a different rule is how almost every game I play or ever played works. Hell, even snake and ladder does. FAQ are for thing that aren't claer in the rules and this is claer as your first post even show you read it. Like we said badly named or we would even have this thread.

There is also the fact that when MSV was writing there was no such thing a Zero-V Smoke so kind of hard to have it under the MSV rules.

Not sure why you're trying so hard to white knight CB.

This is clearly an example of bad writing, and people have identified it. Period.

It's not game breaking, no one is going to stop playing because of it, but it is a point of confusion that could have been eliminated easily by just renaming "Zero-V Smoke" to "Chaff Smoke" or "Digital Smoke" or "Multi-spectral smoke."

Having stuff share the same key words, but with a completely different outcome, is not a good way to write anything. In fact, white knighting like this will drive people away more than this mistake will.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Not sure why you're trying so hard to white knight CB.

This is clearly an example of bad writing, and people have identified it. Period.

It's not game breaking, no one is going to stop playing because of it, but it is a point of confusion that could have been eliminated easily by just renaming "Zero-V Smoke" to "Chaff Smoke" or "Digital Smoke" or "Multi-spectral smoke."

Having stuff share the same key words, but with a completely different outcome, is not a good way to write anything. In fact, white knighting like this will drive people away more than this mistake will.

Not white knighting anyone, if anything im saying they are bad in not being clear and correcting their rules or making them easier to understand. Chill out there buddy.

It could be game breaking. Since N3 release until now, our whole group has played MSV2+ sees through it. No, this wasnt going to make us quit, but it made us never use any smoke since someone always had a MSV2. It also made us not take much close combat at all since that is one of their main ways to move up. This now greatly changes how our whole group will play and create lists.

str00dles1 wrote:

 Vertrucio wrote:
Not sure why you're trying so hard to white knight CB.

This is clearly an example of bad writing, and people have identified it. Period.

It's not game breaking, no one is going to stop playing because of it, but it is a point of confusion that could have been eliminated easily by just renaming "Zero-V Smoke" to "Chaff Smoke" or "Digital Smoke" or "Multi-spectral smoke."

Having stuff share the same key words, but with a completely different outcome, is not a good way to write anything. In fact, white knighting like this will drive people away more than this mistake will.

Not white knighting anyone, if anything im saying they are bad in not being clear and correcting their rules or making them easier to understand. Chill out there buddy.

It could be game breaking. Since N3 release until now, our whole group has played MSV2+ sees through it. No, this wasnt going to make us quit, but it made us never use any smoke since someone always had a MSV2. It also made us not take much close combat at all since that is one of their main ways to move up. This now greatly changes how our whole group will play and create lists.

And it is how we played it in N2 until HS came out and Zero-V Smoke was added. You basically were play right the whole time since N3 release, as until the full PDF was put up for N3 profiles they didn't exist either. You now have the ability to discover cool new tactics like if you started at the start of N2, without the years between like some of us.

str00dles1 wrote:
The issue is pg 140 of N3 says MSV 2 sees through zero v zones with no negative. So the rules contradict eachother. Feel it needs a FAQ. Why states its a zero v zone if the MSV can see through zero v zones

Does Infinity have specific-trumps-general? I'd think "zero-vis that ignores MSV" would trump "MSV ignores zero-vis".

Common sense would point out that if MSV ignored Zero-V smoke then Zero-V smoke would have a line in the rules that meant nothing at all, and applying Heinlein's law would imply that the rules designers put that there for a reason even if they didn't word it as well as they might.

So stupid naming aside, the whole point of Zero-V smoke is that it blocks MSVs.

Smoke is a Zero Visibility Zone and hence can be seen through by MSV2s and up.

Zero-V Smoke is a Zero Visibility Zone that cannot be seen though by MSVs of any level.

In every respect in functions like smoke except that you can't see though it with visors.

The explanation from the Infinity forums:

Yasbir wrote:I supose interruptor didn´t think that it could be a problem when he think about their names
In spanish both concepts use different words:Zero visibility zone = zona de visibilidad nula , Zero-V smoke= humo 0-V , you hardly can be confused with this...so it´s a bad choice in the traslation.

Hey! It's poor translation again! Would probably work better with Zone with Zero Visibility and the wargear Null-V Smoke.