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Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





Spent yet another game taking 2.5 game turns (so, literally half the game) stuck in an assault that eventually worked out exactly the way we predicted (based on expected averages) it would. For the record, I lost that combat.

Why can't we arrive at the same conclusion, but faster? The Assault Phase of the game does not play at anywhere near the speed (tempo may be a better word to use?) of the Shooting Phase.

One of the things that stands in the way of speeding up combat is the to-hit chart.

I'll forego the reasoning and just put out the proposal:

WS 4 v 4 (equal) = 3's to hit on both sides (anytime WS is equal it's 3's)
WS 3 v 4 (plus one) = 4's to hit for the WS3 and 3's to hit for the WS4
WS 2 v 4 (double) = 5's to hit for the WS2 and 2's to hit for the WS4
WS 2 v 5 (double plus one) = 6's to hit for the WS2 and 2's to hit for the WS5, with rerolls for the WS5, hitting on 5's
WS 2 v 6 (triple) = 6's to hit for the WS2 and 2's to hit for the WS6, with rerolls for the WS6, hitting on 3's
WS 2 v 7 (triple plus one) = 6's to hit for the WS2 and AUTOHITS for the WS7

So: Rather than keep the status quo set at 'you hit each other 50% of the time', we bump it up to ~66% of the time. We also recognize the advantages enjoyed by god-like, legendary fighters taking on truly inferior opponents (Bloodthirster v Scarabs, for example).

Additional ideas (that I'm not necessarily tied to, but seem like they'd speed up close combat):
--The To-Hit chart should be expanded to include 6's ('snap hits'). I have included this in the proposed table above.
--There should be more AP6/5/4 close combat weapons than there are currently (again, would speed up close combat).
--Different weapon types (Maul/Axe/Sword for example) should modify from the model's BASE initiative, rather than placing it at a fixed value.

And perhaps Master Crafted would allow a re-roll to hit OR to wound?

I look forward to your reasoned responses.
   
Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife




It sounds okay but my only problem is hitting on a 2+... That's Kharn's thing.
   
Made in be
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Belgium

Yeah, or then you change Kharn's Gorechild to also give extra attacks for each attacks he succesfully land...Oh the Glorious massacre...

   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





Kharn's special rule could be re-written, but even unchanged he still hits opponents of equal/better WS (and Invisible opponents) on 2's

Other than Kharn, does this seem like a reasonable idea?
   
Made in gb
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife




Yes
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





A few issues with this:

1) Too complicated. The to-hit table is very nice and easy to remember.
2) Allowing double+1 WS to reroll on 2's is cumbersome.
3) You are integrating a system of re-rolls into close combat, a situation where models frequently are granted re-rolls from special rules or equipment. For models like this, you'd be doubling the amount of dice that they have to roll to attack, slowing gameplay down (e.g. Okay I have 5 re-rollable attacks at WS5 against your WS2 unit. I roll those 5 dice. Any misses, I reroll and hit on 5's. Any of THOSE that miss, I then again get to re-roll and hit on 2+, and again reroll to hit on 5's.)
3) Hitting on "3's" by default instead of "4's" would basically have the effect of balancing close combat 16% more in favor of whomever had the higher initiative in combat. Higher Initiative models would hit more frequently, cause more casualties, and thus lower initiative forces would have less chances to inflict casualties in return.

All other things being equal, you would be "speeding up" combat, but you'd also be tilting the scales more in favor of whichever force had the higher initiative.

On unequal terms, inferior forces would be helpless against a superior force. "Tarpit" units would become less viable.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





My Guardians' heroic last stand against that Marine squad *should* take more than one phase...
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





Murrdox wrote:

1) Too complicated. The to-hit table is very nice and easy to remember.
...
3) You are integrating a system of re-rolls into close combat, a situation where models frequently are granted re-rolls from special rules or equipment. For models like this, you'd be doubling the amount of dice that they have to roll to attack, slowing gameplay down (e.g. Okay I have 5 re-rollable attacks at WS5 against your WS2 unit. I roll those 5 dice. Any misses, I reroll and hit on 5's. Any of THOSE that miss, I then again get to re-roll and hit on 2+, and again reroll to hit on 5's.)
3) Hitting on "3's" by default instead of "4's" would basically have the effect of balancing close combat 16% more in favor of whomever had the higher initiative in combat. Higher Initiative models would hit more frequently, cause more casualties, and thus lower initiative forces would have less chances to inflict casualties in return.

All other things being equal, you would be "speeding up" combat, but you'd also be tilting the scales more in favor of whichever force had the higher initiative.

On unequal terms, inferior forces would be helpless against a superior force. "Tarpit" units would become less viable.


1) I don't agree that it's TOO complicated. As is, the To-Hit table is indeed very easy to remember. The progression proposed has a rhythm to it that seems like it would be easy to learn. /shrug
2) As for allowing re-rolls being 'cumbersome'; if the end result speeds up the game, it seems like it could be worth it.
3) The rule disallowing for a dice (die?) to be re-rolled more than once covers this situation. The values of Hatred, Preferred Enemy, Prescience, etc. would certainly be affected.
3.1) /wink Combat is already in favor of higher-initiative models, all other things being equal. Changing the To-Hit table would get assaults to their ultimate result sooner than they do now. The situation I mentioned in the original post (2.5 game turns, ultimate outcome as predicted at the beginning) is the boring situation I would hope to avoid/reduce.

Inferior forces are already helpless--there are plenty of things a unit can bump into that it cannot hurt, plenty of things that are faster and have AP weapons, etc. The mechanic Tarpit units rely on isn't necessarily whether they can hit (or even wound) what they are keeping locked in combat, it's primarily a function of whether or not they are fearless and whether or not they can be eliminated in time for their target to get back into the game. Changing the To-Hit table would help cut through at least some Tarpits faster, but 30-man conscript squads with a Priest will still hold up a 4 attack Wraith Knight from turn 2 through the end of the game, even if the Wraith Knight hit and wounded with every attack, leaving Tarpits functionally unchanged, no?

@Bharring: Your Guardians are WS4 and I5, so unless the Marines bring I5 and AP5 or better to that party, you would strike first AND hit on 3's! I think that still works out to you having chances for a multi-phase heroic last stand. And how long does it have to be to be 'heroic'? 1.5 game turns? 2.5 game turns?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





But they're more likely to actually *win* in short order than they currently are. Hitting on 3s mean (2/3)(1/3)(1/3) dead marines, up from (1/2)(1/3)(1/3). 1/13.5 from 1/18 might not sound that huge, bit it will definitely make combat faster. And that's not what everyone wants.
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





Bharring wrote:
...it will definitely make combat faster. And that's not what everyone wants.


Faster is exactly what I'm going for! I'm sure it's not what everyone wants, but would they mind?
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Ok, but we should alter the BS table as well, so that everyone hits on a 2.

Why?

'Cause it would be faster, of course! The to-hit table is fine, leave it be. Remember, it's not just swords and axes and such, it's also pistols, and grenades, and booby traps, and a million other ways to hurt someone that being an epic Swordmaster is wasted upon.

Yes, you can parry all my attacks, but try parrying 10 frag grenades' worth of shrapnel. Seriously, these threads irritate me to no end.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Until the WS at the higher end makes more sense (Random Archon is just as good at swordplay as Jain freaking Zar? And a Vindicare schooling them both in CC?), it will always feel wonky.

These hit tables would certainly help Banshees and Harlequins, but it would make CC even more lopsided.
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!




over there

DCannon4Life wrote:
Bharring wrote:
...it will definitely make combat faster. And that's not what everyone wants.


Faster is exactly what I'm going for! I'm sure it's not what everyone wants, but would they mind?
By the very nature of being human am very likely to care if I get something I do not want. This chart destroys tar pitting. which is a strategy some armies need.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/27 21:13:37


The west is on its death spiral.

It was a good run. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Bharring wrote:
My Guardians' heroic last stand against that Marine squad *should* take more than one phase...


Actually they want it to last only one phase. Get charged in your opponent's turn, make sure the squad is killed, then shoot the enemy unit to death in your own turn. Lasting more than one phase just means that the enemy unit is locked in combat during your turn and immune to shooting. So guardsmen (other than blob squads), fire warriors, etc, would all love this rule. The only thing that would be better for them would be a "swords are scary" rule that lets them all commit suicide at I10 instead of attacking.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Strategery-wise, certainly. Play wise, hell no! My Guardians will turn back those primitives if it costs them their lives!
   
Made in ca
Trustworthy Shas'vre




I have two thoughts on the to hit table.

Option one, not care about the defensive capabilities of the other model and hit just like it was the BS table. A nice boost for all the WS4+ units and it actually makes the fact that Tau are WS2 matter.

The other way I'd like to do it is similar to the OP. Equals hit on 4+, betters hit on 3+, lesser hit on 5+. If the difference is more than double (ie 3 vs 1, 5 vs 2, 7 vs 3, 9 vs 4) then the numbers are 2+ and 6+ for hits. No reroll unless you have a special rule.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/28 05:20:00


Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. 
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

BS can already go the full range of a 6, with rerolls in the upper end. WS is much more limited, and it's something that has always irked me about the system. I'd like the full range (2-6), but without rerolls for the same reasons other people have said. It makes Weapon Skill actually matter, which it barely does at the moment. It would also greatly improve the effect of reducing an opponent to WS1, as can be done with a number of methods that are mostly useless because whatever is doing the reducing is usually high or equal WS anyway, and even when not, it's only an improvement of one.

I'd set equal WS to cause hits on a 4+, and would prefer that every extra point of WS difference causes a roll change; 4 v 4 is 4+, 4 v 3 is 3+, 4 v 2 is 2+, 4 v 1 is an automatic hit (or maybe an additional attack, possibly resolved at a lower To Hit).

Under this system Khârn is still benefiting greatly from Gorechild, and at Weapon Skill 7, few things would hit him back on a 2+. Not that Khârn having exclusive rights to hitting on 2+ makes any sense, anyway. I would put autohits on triple WS, though.

Instead of rerolls, what about gaining a few additional Attacks to the greater, or reducing Attacks to the lesser? I'd be happy without it, but it could work. It wouldn't matter often, if 1 is treated as the minimum.

Sieg Zeon!

Selling TGG2! 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Peregrine wrote:
Bharring wrote:
My Guardians' heroic last stand against that Marine squad *should* take more than one phase...


Actually they want it to last only one phase. Get charged in your opponent's turn, make sure the squad is killed, then shoot the enemy unit to death in your own turn. Lasting more than one phase just means that the enemy unit is locked in combat during your turn and immune to shooting. So guardsmen (other than blob squads), fire warriors, etc, would all love this rule. The only thing that would be better for them would be a "swords are scary" rule that lets them all commit suicide at I10 instead of attacking.


Actually, Swords are Scary (Yes, it's a thing now) would be better if it hit at I1.

After all, even Guardsmen or Fire Warriors can get some kills if you roll well, and you don't lose anything by having them suicide after all blows are struck instead of before.

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Yeah, or then you change Kharn's Gorechild to also give extra attacks for each attacks he succesfully land...Oh the Glorious massacre...


Where is this rule? I didn't know he could do this.

I went to Hershey Park in central PA this year, and I have to say I was more than a little disappointed. I fully expected the entire theme park to be make entirely of chocolate, but no. Here in America, we have "building codes," and some other nonsense about chocolate melting if don't store it someplace kept below room temperature. 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

^ Pretty sure it's part of the Butcherhorde Dataslate / Money Grab. Well, a modified version, anyhow. Something about 6's to hit or something?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 04:03:41


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






The Bolt Action way of assault is that you keep going back and forth until one side dies. I think something like this would be pretty neat in 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/29 09:42:38


Age of Sigmar - It's sorta like a clogged toilet, where the muck crests over the rim and onto the floor. Somehow 'ground marines' were created from this...
 
   
Made in us
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets





Houston, TX

I agree fully with making WS matter more and expanding the range of results on the to-hit table. It seems silly that a model trying to attack a stationary vehicle (WS1) still only hits on 3's.

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Made in fr
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Calixis sector / Screaming Vortex

kveldulf wrote:
The Bolt Action way of assault is that you keep going back and forth until one side dies. I think something like this would be pretty neat in 40k.


It sounds cool, but then you'd systematically get shot to death by Tau :(
And then what would you have Hit and Run do?

CSM
Militarum Tempestus
Dark Angels (Deathwing)
Inquisition 
   
Made in au
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





DCannon4Life wrote:
Spent yet another game taking 2.5 game turns (so, literally half the game) stuck in an assault that eventually worked out exactly the way we predicted (based on expected averages) it would. For the record, I lost that combat.

Why can't we arrive at the same conclusion, but faster? The Assault Phase of the game does not play at anywhere near the speed (tempo may be a better word to use?) of the Shooting Phase.

One of the things that stands in the way of speeding up combat is the to-hit chart.

I'll forego the reasoning and just put out the proposal:

WS 4 v 4 (equal) = 3's to hit on both sides (anytime WS is equal it's 3's)
WS 3 v 4 (plus one) = 4's to hit for the WS3 and 3's to hit for the WS4
WS 2 v 4 (double) = 5's to hit for the WS2 and 2's to hit for the WS4
WS 2 v 5 (double plus one) = 6's to hit for the WS2 and 2's to hit for the WS5, with rerolls for the WS5, hitting on 5's
WS 2 v 6 (triple) = 6's to hit for the WS2 and 2's to hit for the WS6, with rerolls for the WS6, hitting on 3's
WS 2 v 7 (triple plus one) = 6's to hit for the WS2 and AUTOHITS for the WS7

So: Rather than keep the status quo set at 'you hit each other 50% of the time', we bump it up to ~66% of the time. We also recognize the advantages enjoyed by god-like, legendary fighters taking on truly inferior opponents (Bloodthirster v Scarabs, for example).

Additional ideas (that I'm not necessarily tied to, but seem like they'd speed up close combat):
--The To-Hit chart should be expanded to include 6's ('snap hits'). I have included this in the proposed table above.
--There should be more AP6/5/4 close combat weapons than there are currently (again, would speed up close combat).
--Different weapon types (Maul/Axe/Sword for example) should modify from the model's BASE initiative, rather than placing it at a fixed value.

And perhaps Master Crafted would allow a re-roll to hit OR to wound?

I look forward to your reasoned responses.


Equal weapon skill should be 4+ to hit, because since they weapon skills are the same, there's an equal chance of you hitting and missing.
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

Here's what I'm currently toying with. I'd test it, but getting a game is extremely difficult for me right now. I drew up a table for it, too.


Attacker
Equal WS = 4+
WS+1 = 3+
WS+2 = 2+
WS+3 = 1+
WS+4 = +1 Attack
WS+5 = +2 Attacks
WS+6 = +3 Attacks
WS+7 = +4 Attacks
WS+8 = +5 Attacks
WS+9 = +6 Attacks
Additional attacks given from WS hit on 3+?

Defender
Lose an Attack for every point of WS difference greater than 3, to a minimum of 1 Attack. This does not apply to Attacks resolved against the defender's own unit. This does apply to bonus Attacks gained from charging, Daemon Weapons*, or anything else.

WS1 vs WS4. WS4 hits automatically. WS1 lose a single attack, and hit on 6s.
or
WS1 vs WS5. WS5 hits automatically and gains a bonus Attack that hits on 3+. WS1 loses two Attacks and hits on 6s.
or
WS1 vs WS10. WS10 hits automatically and gains six bonus Attacks that hit on 3+. WS1 loses seven Attacks and hits on 6s.


Should bonus Attacks granted from high WS be at the model's base Strength and AP?

On power weapons: I like the concept of weapons having an Initiative penalty rather than being at a fixed value. Meanwhile, Space Wolves, for no reason ("because octopus teeth" is not a valid explanation), have better power weapons than everyone else. Should this be made standard? S6 power axes, S5 power swords and lightning claws? Having a higher Strength would make close combat more desirable, and faster. Not sure what to do for Xenos, though.

EDIT: Grey Knights should be exempt from power weapon improvements, since they already have a whole suite of buffs they can gain from their special halberds and so on. Unless they need it; I'm not hugely familiar with Grey Knights in the current edition.

EDIT2: * I'm not sure about this, because this system would make the Daemon Weapon attack roll of 1 (in which "the weapon rebels") much, much more punishing than it already is; even without reducing Attacks, the WS1 that occurs as a result of the failure will make it much harder to hit and much, much easier to be hit back. Either Daemon Weapons need a buff to compensate or they need a special exemption to this system.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 15:38:26


Sieg Zeon!

Selling TGG2! 
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon





My original idea, revised to remove re-rollable attacks:

WS 2 v 2 (equal) = 3's to hit on both sides (anytime WS is equal it's 3's)
WS 2 v 3 (greater than equal, but less than double) = 4's to hit for the WS3 and 3's to hit for the WS4
WS 2 v 4 (double) = 5's to hit for the WS2 and 2's to hit for the WS4
WS 2 v 5 (greater than double, but less than triple) = 6's to hit for the WS2 and 2's to hit for the WS5
WS 2 v 6 (triple) = 6's to hit for the WS2 and 2's to hit for the WS6
WS 2 v 7 (greater than triple) = 6's to hit for the WS2 and AUTOHITS for the WS7

Perhaps important to note that most combats are in the range of WS3 to WS5, and that there is little change from the way things are now:
WS3 v WS3 is 3's (~16% more hits than now)
WS3 v WS4 is 4's and 3's (what it is now)
WS3 v WS5 is 4's and 3's (what it is now)
WS4 v WS4 is 3's (~16% more hits than now)
WS4 v WS5 is 4's and 3's (what it is now)
WS5 v WS5 is 3's (~16% more hits than now)

So: combats between equally skilled opponents would be sped up a little. Combats with less than a doubling's worth of skill difference would follow the current chart. Since the side with the higher WS is hitting on 3's already, the combat resolves at a decent pace.

Where things would change dramatically is when the opponents have significantly different skill levels (double or more):
WS2 v WS4 5's and 2's (Typically requires double-plus-one to go to 5's to hit, and going to 2's is unheard of, save for Kharn)
WS2 v WS5 6's and 2's (This is sub-cultist level CC skill vs Elite CC Unit....)
WS2 v WS7 6's and Autohits (This is sub-cultist level CC skill vs Legendary fighters, almost always characters)

I think the core of my idea is to see the CC To-Hit table reflect the prowess of elite close combat units and legendary fighters, along with the consequences of a gross mismatch in Weapon SKill.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






See, units with high WS often don't care about getting hit on 4-s, 5-s or 6-s vs non-dedicated mellee units. They're still recieving little to no damage . While it DOES matter if they meet a mellee unit with average WS like asm or ork boyz.

If you want to change WS this way, higher values become very effective vs other mellee units, thus you got to add it to the cost. Something like an Avatar, Bloodthirster, Lelith must all go up in price. Making this units more hit-or-miss. Cause they're becoming less effective vs shooters and more effective vs other mellee units.

I just want to point out that WS buff only matters vs other mellee units. The things you propose will only lead to more shooters and high-ws MC (like it allready is in most metas) cause you wouldn't be able to kill something like a high WS MC in mellee. You basically have no other choice but forego mellee completely and invest in more shooting due to how situational average WS guyz become. Or spam high WS MC yourself.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/02/04 07:05:03


 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




How about the WS is the score the opponent needs to roll to hit you in assault?
No faffing about with tables or charts.

If you are WS 4 the opponent needs to roll 4+ to hit you in assault.
If you are WS2 your opponent needs to roll 2+ to hit you in assault.

Obviously some values would need tweeking.

What do you think?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 17:36:09


 
   
Made in us
Ruthless Interrogator





And what about higher ws like 7-9? Either you have to restat EVERYONE or make it something weird for ws7+ so that you have to roll a 6 and then a 2 or something in order to hit.


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Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




I did say you would have to adjust values.

But having the range of 1+2+3+4+5+6+ to hit ,is TWICE as good as 3+4+5 is it not?

If I have WS 10 the BEST value in the game.

I hit WS 1 and WS2 and WS 3 and WS 4 and WS 5, and WS6. and WS 7 and WS 8 and WS 9 on a 3+
Whats the point in having 9 values that MAKE NO DIFFERENCE!

There are only about 7 models with WS higher than 6, out of the 200+ model types in 40k.

I think the benefits of the new system would be worth the effort of adjusting values.
   
 
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