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I own lizardmen and a mounted empire army. I was curious if there are any good deathstar/hammer builds for those armies? I know a balanced list is better but I like putting all my eggs in one basket. I find it a lot of fun on occasion. I'm especially curious about lizardmen builds since I get theirresilience but I can work out how to get the killing power.

The builds are there for empire, but they're not good.

Lizzies have the cavstar.

If you wished to...For the Empire, you could consider a Inner Circle Knight block with a fairly armoured up warrior priest (Hand weapon or great weapon, choose!) all with lances, alongside a Grand Master with say The Runefang and maybe the Potion of Foolhardiness, either that or an ogre blade+White Cloak of Ulric+Potion of Foolhardiness+Enchanted shield. Makes the GM a little tougher, and he's a decent character overall, and if you get IC knights with lances on a charge with hatred...could be quite nasty!

 Sampson97 wrote:
If you wished to...For the Empire, you could consider a Inner Circle Knight block with a fairly armoured up warrior priest (Hand weapon or great weapon, choose!) all with lances, alongside a Grand Master with say The Runefang and maybe the Potion of Foolhardiness, either that or an ogre blade+White Cloak of Ulric+Potion of Foolhardiness+Enchanted shield. Makes the GM a little tougher, and he's a decent character overall, and if you get IC knights with lances on a charge with hatred...could be quite nasty!

But that's a unit that's I3, and has one decent turn of effective combat. If they go GWs, they lose their armour and strike last, which is a terrible payoff.

Knights tars are good on paper, but mediocre in practice. Empire get their strength from multiple different methods. Combat is not high on that list outside of Demis.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Sampson97 wrote:
If you wished to...For the Empire, you could consider a Inner Circle Knight block with a fairly armoured up warrior priest (Hand weapon or great weapon, choose!) all with lances, alongside a Grand Master with say The Runefang and maybe the Potion of Foolhardiness, either that or an ogre blade+White Cloak of Ulric+Potion of Foolhardiness+Enchanted shield. Makes the GM a little tougher, and he's a decent character overall, and if you get IC knights with lances on a charge with hatred...could be quite nasty!

But that's a unit that's I3, and has one decent turn of effective combat. If they go GWs, they lose their armour and strike last, which is a terrible payoff.

Knights tars are good on paper, but mediocre in practice. Empire get their strength from multiple different methods. Combat is not high on that list outside of Demis.

Aye true, and when I started Empire that slightly annoyed me that they're I3 but what ya gonna do? XD But aye, I mean the single round of combat IF you get the charge is very good most of the time, but you definitely need the support after that, say a flanking unit of typical knights/demigryphs since the person here says they have an all cavalry list. But yeh, RARELY do I see or hear of Empire guys slapping on great weapons unless they're trying on small chaff units or flankers, or for the fluff. But despite their loss of initiative, they have decent armour, and with a WP in tow, a lucky ward save can be great...However an Ironcurse icon on the WP could be a bonus when getting to combat (They absorb all the fire quick!).

I have had some success with a temple guard deathstar.

Light slann - BSB, Skavenpelt banner
30 Temple Guard (all I own), Razor Banner, Full Command
Supported by a Troglodon and jungle swarms.

I won combat against some skeletons by 14. It was very satisfying.

I'll have to try the cold one star but I'll have to pick up another box of cold one. I'm guessing it relies on having a lot of characters on cold ones

 shamroll wrote:
I have had some success with a temple guard deathstar.

Light slann - BSB, Skavenpelt banner
30 Temple Guard (all I own), Razor Banner, Full Command
Supported by a Troglodon and jungle swarms.

I won combat against some skeletons by 14. It was very satisfying.

I'll have to try the cold one star but I'll have to pick up another box of cold one. I'm guessing it relies on having a lot of characters on cold ones

WOAH, you beat SKELETONS?!.... looks like we've got a badass over here

Cav bus is good because you can reliably get to 1+ save without any real trouble. Lord Kroak in 30 TG FC Razor is better IMO, -1 to hit? yes please.

 therealsuperman wrote:

 shamroll wrote:
I have had some success with a temple guard deathstar.

Light slann - BSB, Skavenpelt banner
30 Temple Guard (all I own), Razor Banner, Full Command
Supported by a Troglodon and jungle swarms.

I won combat against some skeletons by 14. It was very satisfying.

I'll have to try the cold one star but I'll have to pick up another box of cold one. I'm guessing it relies on having a lot of characters on cold ones

WOAH, you beat SKELETONS?!.... looks like we've got a badass over here

Cav bus is good because you can reliably get to 1+ save without any real trouble. Lord Kroak in 30 TG FC Razor is better IMO, -1 to hit? yes please.

Yeah, but Temple Guard struggle to hit anything and can be Thunderstomped. And durable isn't how I'd describe them.

Lizardmen infantry have more drawbacks than advantages to be good.

Empire Cav star is different than most, in that you gain durability through numbers.
Try ~40 innercircle knights, with priest for re-rolls, lord for the runefang and captain for stubborn, and another captain for the speculum.

Yeah, ASL T3 and 2+ armor isn't the most durable, but 27 S6 attacks with re-rolls to hit is pretty solid, and then the characters polish it all off.

For lizardmen, just stick 3 to 4 fighting characters in a unit. Either on foot or mounted up. The characters are really cheap for what you get, and a very beefy.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Empire Cav star is different than most, in that you gain durability through numbers.
Try ~40 innercircle knights, with priest for re-rolls, lord for the runefang and captain for stubborn, and another captain for the speculum.

Yeah, ASL T3 and 2+ armor isn't the most durable, but 27 S6 attacks with re-rolls to hit is pretty solid, and then the characters polish it all off.

For lizardmen, just stick 3 to 4 fighting characters in a unit. Either on foot or mounted up. The characters are really cheap for what you get, and a very beefy.

-Matt

That Empire list works until you come up against Warriors, Dark Elves(Combat or shooting), High Elves(Combat or shooting), Wood Elves, Dwarfs, OnG or Lizardmen.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Empire Cav star is different than most, in that you gain durability through numbers.
Try ~40 innercircle knights, with priest for re-rolls, lord for the runefang and captain for stubborn, and another captain for the speculum.

Yeah, ASL T3 and 2+ armor isn't the most durable, but 27 S6 attacks with re-rolls to hit is pretty solid, and then the characters polish it all off.

For lizardmen, just stick 3 to 4 fighting characters in a unit. Either on foot or mounted up. The characters are really cheap for what you get, and a very beefy.

-Matt

That Empire list works until you come up against Warriors, Dark Elves(Combat or shooting), High Elves(Combat or shooting), Wood Elves, Dwarfs, OnG or Lizardmen.

I've run it against most of those. Flanked by steam tanks, and support with cannons, it's a tough nut to crack. Warriors of chaos cry, thanks to the speculum neutering characters. They can reliably ride into the face of a halberd horde, and ride out the other side. It totally murders lizards, darts bounce off it all game long, and it trounces lizard units (hitting on 3's with re-rolls and killing on 2+ will do that).
Executioner horde would be the bad match out. But, it's not like empire has another death star option.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Empire Cav star is different than most, in that you gain durability through numbers.
Try ~40 innercircle knights, with priest for re-rolls, lord for the runefang and captain for stubborn, and another captain for the speculum.

Yeah, ASL T3 and 2+ armor isn't the most durable, but 27 S6 attacks with re-rolls to hit is pretty solid, and then the characters polish it all off.

For lizardmen, just stick 3 to 4 fighting characters in a unit. Either on foot or mounted up. The characters are really cheap for what you get, and a very beefy.

-Matt

That Empire list works until you come up against Warriors, Dark Elves(Combat or shooting), High Elves(Combat or shooting), Wood Elves, Dwarfs, OnG or Lizardmen.

I've run it against most of those. Flanked by steam tanks, and support with cannons, it's a tough nut to crack. Warriors of chaos cry, thanks to the speculum neutering characters. They can reliably ride into the face of a halberd horde, and ride out the other side. It totally murders lizards, darts bounce off it all game long, and it trounces lizard units (hitting on 3's with re-rolls and killing on 2+ will do that).
Executioner horde would be the bad match out. But, it's not like empire has another death star option.

Yes. Because I was referring to characters and halberd warrior units. That halberd horde of infantry. Which is so common nowadays.

Empire has no decent deathstars. You lose 99% of the army's strength by doing that.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Empire Cav star is different than most, in that you gain durability through numbers.
Try ~40 innercircle knights, with priest for re-rolls, lord for the runefang and captain for stubborn, and another captain for the speculum.

Yeah, ASL T3 and 2+ armor isn't the most durable, but 27 S6 attacks with re-rolls to hit is pretty solid, and then the characters polish it all off.

For lizardmen, just stick 3 to 4 fighting characters in a unit. Either on foot or mounted up. The characters are really cheap for what you get, and a very beefy.

-Matt

That Empire list works until you come up against Warriors, Dark Elves(Combat or shooting), High Elves(Combat or shooting), Wood Elves, Dwarfs, OnG or Lizardmen.

I've run it against most of those. Flanked by steam tanks, and support with cannons, it's a tough nut to crack. Warriors of chaos cry, thanks to the speculum neutering characters. They can reliably ride into the face of a halberd horde, and ride out the other side. It totally murders lizards, darts bounce off it all game long, and it trounces lizard units (hitting on 3's with re-rolls and killing on 2+ will do that).
Executioner horde would be the bad match out. But, it's not like empire has another death star option.

Yes. Because I was referring to characters and halberd warrior units. That halberd horde of infantry. Which is so common nowadays.

Empire has no decent deathstars. You lose 99% of the army's strength by doing that.

Horde of nurgle warriors gets 40 attacks, 2/3rd hit, 5/6 wound, and 1/2 save. ~11 kills.
27 knight attacks hitting on 5's with re-rolls, wounding and killing on 2+. 12.5 kills.
Another +.55 kills from the horses, and then it comes down to the characters, who ever issues a challenge gets murdered (either by runefang or speculum), and the much faster knights are far more likely to get to declare the charge.
If the warriors are smaller than a full horde, the advantage shifts further to the empire bus.
Odds are solidly in the empires favor.
-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Empire Cav star is different than most, in that you gain durability through numbers.
Try ~40 innercircle knights, with priest for re-rolls, lord for the runefang and captain for stubborn, and another captain for the speculum.

Yeah, ASL T3 and 2+ armor isn't the most durable, but 27 S6 attacks with re-rolls to hit is pretty solid, and then the characters polish it all off.

For lizardmen, just stick 3 to 4 fighting characters in a unit. Either on foot or mounted up. The characters are really cheap for what you get, and a very beefy.

-Matt

That Empire list works until you come up against Warriors, Dark Elves(Combat or shooting), High Elves(Combat or shooting), Wood Elves, Dwarfs, OnG or Lizardmen.

I've run it against most of those. Flanked by steam tanks, and support with cannons, it's a tough nut to crack. Warriors of chaos cry, thanks to the speculum neutering characters. They can reliably ride into the face of a halberd horde, and ride out the other side. It totally murders lizards, darts bounce off it all game long, and it trounces lizard units (hitting on 3's with re-rolls and killing on 2+ will do that).
Executioner horde would be the bad match out. But, it's not like empire has another death star option.

Yes. Because I was referring to characters and halberd warrior units. That halberd horde of infantry. Which is so common nowadays.

Empire has no decent deathstars. You lose 99% of the army's strength by doing that.

Horde of nurgle warriors gets 40 attacks, 2/3rd hit, 5/6 wound, and 1/2 save. ~11 kills.
27 knight attacks hitting on 5's with re-rolls, wounding and killing on 2+. 12.5 kills.
Another +.55 kills from the horses, and then it comes down to the characters, who ever issues a challenge gets murdered (either by runefang or speculum), and the much faster knights are far more likely to get to declare the charge.
If the warriors are smaller than a full horde, the advantage shifts further to the empire bus.
Odds are solidly in the empires favor.
-Matt

Again, that unit is not what I was referring to. And, furthermore, it's a unit that has drastically fallen out of fashion.

For the Lizardmen TG block its all about the Light Slann. Its pretty much custom built to turn all the drawbacks into strengths.

WS10 I10? yeah thats some scary dinos. Oh hey extra attack double movment, ok. Being -1 to be hit is always great because it will ALWAYS drastically change probability.

They are stubborn stock with Slann and then theres no reason to not make him your bsb.

I had 32 TG with slann almost beat a 50 strong witch elf block with cauldron. I was winning all the combats I just ran outta dudes first.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Again, that unit is not what I was referring to. And, furthermore, it's a unit that has drastically fallen out of fashion.

I missed the sarcasm.

And which warriors unit were you referring to?
Daemon princes get munched by speculum. He doesn't really want to be within ~16" of the front of the unit for fear of getting punked.
Skull Crushers really don't like runefangs, chariots/monsters don't like massed S6.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Again, that unit is not what I was referring to. And, furthermore, it's a unit that has drastically fallen out of fashion.

I missed the sarcasm.

And which warriors unit were you referring to?
Daemon princes get munched by speculum. He doesn't really want to be within ~16" of the front of the unit for fear of getting punked.
Skull Crushers really don't like runefangs, chariots/monsters don't like massed S6.

Skullcruthers may not like a Runefang, but that's 4 wounds you're likely to get through. The skullcrushers will still do a lot more.

As for Demon Princes, they've fallen out in favour of the disc lord. Who will actually grind out anyone with a runefang.

The Knightstar will ruin that unit. As will anyone committing to actually taking Crushers.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Again, that unit is not what I was referring to. And, furthermore, it's a unit that has drastically fallen out of fashion.

I missed the sarcasm.

And which warriors unit were you referring to?
Daemon princes get munched by speculum. He doesn't really want to be within ~16" of the front of the unit for fear of getting punked.
Skull Crushers really don't like runefangs, chariots/monsters don't like massed S6.

Skullcruthers may not like a Runefang, but that's 4 wounds you're likely to get through. The skullcrushers will still do a lot more.

As for Demon Princes, they've fallen out in favour of the disc lord. Who will actually grind out anyone with a runefang.

The Knightstar will ruin that unit. As will anyone committing to actually taking Crushers.

Disc lord is going to get speculumed.

I've seen the skull crusher match up before.
Crushers charge in, empire player waits for the required challenge to be issued. A unit champ would get stuck fighting the WS6 Init 6 runefang. A beefier character gets speculumed.
Rune Fang drops a skull crusher before it swings (rank and file or unit champ)
Surviving 7 crushers do ~10 wounds (between riders and mounts).
Rank and file knights do 8-9 unsaved wounds.
3 other empire heroes haven't swung yet.
Empire wins combat by ~4 or 5, crushers lose frenzy and aren't steadfast.

End of the first round of combat after taking the charge, half the crushers are dead, and not breaking is going to come down to character gear; of a character who is likely to be in a challenge with a speculum.


Chaos really needs 3 characters in the fight to have a good chance at taking on that unit.

Point of note, the suggested Knightstar vs those WoC units? By an eyeballing, it clocks in at least twice as expensive. Before characters / command. And still takes heavy casualties in the process. Would not call it very successful.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Point of note, the suggested Knightstar vs those WoC units? By an eyeballing, it clocks in at least twice as expensive. Before characters / command. And still takes heavy casualties in the process. Would not call it very successful.

Exactly. A deathstar is a unit that nobody wants to fight. That unit can be ground out. The disclord will hold up the runefang character with his pseudo 2++. This allows the crushers to ruin the unit.