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Is a unit able to be embarked on a Transport (DT or otherwise) without going through the Embarking step?

(paraphrasing the Embarking rule pg 80 BRB) In order to embark onto a vehicle each model must be within 2" of the access points in the movement phase. This is the only rule on the process of Embarking that I can find (if there is more please post page for me to look at).

The only other way in the BRB (that I can find if there is more please let me know) is the Combined Reserve Units rule on page 135 with the line in question "Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together." If the unit reserves with it's transport it doesn't go through the Embarking process, it just simply is embarked and being carried by the Transport. It can't go through the "Embarking" process since: 1) the unit and Transport aren't deployed, 2) Can't be done in the movement phase.

Is this a "correct" interpretation of the "Embarking" rules and "Combined Reserve Units" rules?

Can a unit begin the game already in the state of embarked without going through the "Embarking" rules?

- You can infiltrate into buildings (p167)
- You can deploy on the table already in a vehicle or building (p132)

Is there a specific scenario you're trying to allude to here? It would help if we knew the context of this question.

Why does it matter?

Because some people can't Let It Go...

Oberron wrote:
Can a unit being the game already in the state of embarked without going through the "Embarking" rules?

Technically, yes. However, going down that road has nasty consequences, as pointed out in the linked thread. For the sake of everyone's sanity, it seems a much better idea to assume that an embarked unit would have had to be capable of following the normal embarking rules in order to get there.

Ahh, I see. He's attempting to circumvent the transport restriction on jump infantry by saying the restriction is on embarking, and not carrying, so they can start the game inside the scythe. Clever rules lawyering.

No I'm not talking about the jump infantry thing. All my questions that i posted in there where ignored for the most part.

What problems are there Insaniak if this is the case? I saw in the other thread that that lets silly things happen like titans in drop pods or w/e but I don't see how that is possible because of the Transport capacity rule "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport capacity." brb pg 80


I'm not talking about any kind of specific scenario or happen stance. I am only talking bout just the RAW of the difference between "Embarking", embark, embarked and if it is possible if a unit can be embarked on a transport without going through the "Embarking" rule process.


Another thing of note is what is this place called where the models are tat are being transported. In the rule book it just tells us to remove them from the table and make a note but doesn't say where they are game wise. Not in reserves, no longer on the table, not in Deep Strike Reserves. Are they in some kind of weird limbo when being carried?



(For the record I am a necron player but as for that topic which I don't want to bring into this topic I am on the fence about the issue and just won't play with preatoriens with a night scythe til an FAQ or something)

Edit: I'm posting the questions again since the discussion quickly derailed.

Is this a "correct" interpretation of the "Embarking" rules and "Combined Reserve Units" rules? (See above in first post)

Can a unit being the game already in the state of embarked without going through the "Embarking" rules (is it RAW)? (See above in first post)

So far just got a single "Technically, yes" but with 'problems'

Still confusing as to what you're trying to avoid here...

A unit can be embarked inside a vehicle by:
-Using the Embarking rules on page 80 during the Movement phase.
-Using the Deployment rules on page 132 (third paragraph).
-Using the Combined Reserve Units rule on page 135.

Whichever method is used, the end result is the same surely?

If you require to measure to / from a unit that is embarked (except for it's shooting), you measure to the hull of the transport vehicle instead (page 80, Embarking, end of the first paragraph). Whether they are "still on the board" is semantics - Psykers in transports still generate Warp Charge for example.

"Can a unit being the game..."

Well thats a confusing question right there. I will assume you meant "Begin"

But yes. Units can begin the game deployed inside the transport. That circumvents the "Embarking" process, but must still follow the rules for transports.

However, it will give us a better chance to answer your question if you provide a specific example of why this would make a difference.

So, please provide an example of your interpretation, or an example of an alternative interpretation that you think conflicts with your own.

Well all of this came to mind because of another thread but that thread got locked and I don't want to turn this thread into that thread.

The end result is the same whichever rule is used but what i wanna know is do they all follow the same path to get to that end of of a unit being embarked/carried by a Transport.

Say I have a nightscythe with a unit of Lychguard in them. Following the Combined Reserve Units rule I specify that the Lychguard are in reserve and are embarked on the nightscythe. Did at any point of that did the Lychguard go through the "Embarking" process/rule?

They still follow the Transport Capacity rules of "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."


Is "Embarking"(the rule) the same as embark and is embarked the same as Embarking/embark?

Can you be embarked on a vehicle without going through the "Embarking" rule?

I think the "Embarking" Process is only used for mid-game purposes and for units on the battlefield looking to get back in to a transport.

So yes, models that begin the game in a transport do not go through the "embarking" process as you call it. Since the embarking process is only used for models on the field that are now getting in to a vehicle.

Otherwise, the units are simply deployed in the transport.

Oberron wrote:
They still follow the Transport Capacity rules of "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."

Why are you picking and choosing which Transport Capacity rules are followed?
What is stopping the unit of 30 Orks from deploying into a Truck, using your argument?

rigeld2 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
They still follow the Transport Capacity rules of "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."

Why are you picking and choosing which Transport Capacity rules are followed?
What is stopping the unit of 30 Orks from deploying into a Truck, using your argument?

Unless I am mistaken that trukk has a set capacity(read carrying capacity) that does not change and is not dependent on whether or not you were embarking into it or deployed into it.

The idea here is to skip the embarking step( said unit does not embark) and instead "deploy" in the vehicle.

RAW it works ( I guess) but I would never play it that way because it could lead to some pretty crazy rule shenanigans ( and possibly no one to play with )

rigeld2 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
They still follow the Transport Capacity rules of "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."

Why are you picking and choosing which Transport Capacity rules are followed?
What is stopping the unit of 30 Orks from deploying into a Truck, using your argument?

The rules have a loophole and don't fully hold together here. He is picking and choosing to follow the transport capacity because he patches in the logical connection when there is indeed none. Going directly against the transport capacity violates most people's sense of what adhering to the clear sense of the rules means.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
They still follow the Transport Capacity rules of "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."

Why are you picking and choosing which Transport Capacity rules are followed?
What is stopping the unit of 30 Orks from deploying into a Truck, using your argument?

Unless I am mistaken that trukk has a set capacity(read carrying capacity) that does not change and is not dependent on whether or not you were embarking into it or deployed into it.

The idea here is to skip the embarking step( said unit does not embark) and instead "deploy" in the vehicle.

RAW it works ( I guess) but I would never play it that way because it could lead to some pretty crazy rule shenanigans ( and possibly no one to play with )

There's nothing in the Transport Capacity rules that restricts it to just embarkation. Either it always applys or the entire rule doesn't.

And since the restriction against Jump Infantry is part of this rule, arguing that section doesn't apply while still applying another section, without any reason for doing so is ... disingenious.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
They still follow the Transport Capacity rules of "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."

Why are you picking and choosing which Transport Capacity rules are followed?
What is stopping the unit of 30 Orks from deploying into a Truck, using your argument?

The rules have a loophole and don't fully hold together here. He is picking and choosing to follow the transport capacity because he patches in the logical connection when there is indeed none. Going directly against the transport capacity violates most people's sense of what adhering to the clear sense of the rules means.

There is no loophole - there only is if you assume it's possible to be embarked without following the embark rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
They still follow the Transport Capacity rules of "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."

Why are you picking and choosing which Transport Capacity rules are followed?
What is stopping the unit of 30 Orks from deploying into a Truck, using your argument?

I'm not saying those where the only ones they where following, I'm sorry you assumed I was saying those where the only ones. I picked that rule because it combines a lot of the core rules for Transport capacity, 1.) type of unit (Infantry) 2.) Transport maximum capacity. If they skip over the Embarking process they don't need to follow the only Infantry (not including Jump or jet-pack) can embark part since they are past that part, they don't have the bulky rule, and there are no constraints on types of models the night scythe can carry.


For giggles lets say I did mean that was the only rule. It says it right there up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity what is the capacity of a truk? not 30.

rigeld2 wrote:

There is no loophole - there only is if you assume it's possible to be embarked without following the embark rules.

This is what I am asking. Can a unit be embarked without following the "Embarking" rules?


edit: fixed a typo

rigeld2 wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
They still follow the Transport Capacity rules of "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."

Why are you picking and choosing which Transport Capacity rules are followed?
What is stopping the unit of 30 Orks from deploying into a Truck, using your argument?

Unless I am mistaken that trukk has a set capacity(read carrying capacity) that does not change and is not dependent on whether or not you were embarking into it or deployed into it.

The idea here is to skip the embarking step( said unit does not embark) and instead "deploy" in the vehicle.

RAW it works ( I guess) but I would never play it that way because it could lead to some pretty crazy rule shenanigans ( and possibly no one to play with )

There's nothing in the Transport Capacity rules that restricts it to just embarkation. Either it always applys or the entire rule doesn't.

Spoiler:

TRANSPORT CAPACITY
Each Transport vehicle has a maximum passenger capacity that can never be exceeded. A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity. The entire unit must be embarked on the Transport if any part of it is – a unit cannot be partially embarked or be spread across multiple Transports.
Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise. Some larger Infantry models count as more than one model for the purposes of Transport Capacity, and this will be specified in the model’s rules. Sometimes, there will be constraints on which types of models can embark upon a particular vehicle, and this will be specified in the unit’s entry. Space Marine Terminators, for example, cannot embark upon a Rhino or Razorback, although they can be transported by a Land Raider.

And since the restriction against Jump Infantry is part of this rule, arguing that section doesn't apply while still applying another section, without any reason for doing so is ... disingenious.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
They still follow the Transport Capacity rules of "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."

Why are you picking and choosing which Transport Capacity rules are followed?
What is stopping the unit of 30 Orks from deploying into a Truck, using your argument?

The rules have a loophole and don't fully hold together here. He is picking and choosing to follow the transport capacity because he patches in the logical connection when there is indeed none. Going directly against the transport capacity violates most people's sense of what adhering to the clear sense of the rules means.

There is no loophole - there only is if you assume it's possible to be embarked without following the embark rules.

Point out in the rules where someone is required to go through embarking when a unit is deployed in its dedicated transport. You are the one making assumptions. Technically there is a loophole.

Oberron wrote:
For giggles lets say I did mean that was the only rule. It says it right there up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity what is the capacity of a truk? not 30.

The capacity of a Truck is 12 Infantry models.

Unit type is a part of Transport Capacity. Meaning you have to meet *both*. So asserting that Jump Infantry can magically be embarked without embarking means that you can also skip the maximum capacity by magically being embarked without embarking.

If one applies, the other must apply. Arguing that only half of it applies with literally no rules support makes no sense. And that's what you're doing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Point out in the rules where someone is required to go through embarking when a unit is deployed in its dedicated transport. You are the one making assumptions. Technically there is a loophole.

The only way to be embarked is to embark. That's why it's the past tense of the word.

You're making an assumption that there's a way to avoid embarking.

rigeld2 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
For giggles lets say I did mean that was the only rule. It says it right there up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity what is the capacity of a truk? not 30.

The capacity of a Truck is 12 Infantry models.

Unit type is a part of Transport Capacity. Meaning you have to meet *both*. So asserting that Jump Infantry can magically be embarked without embarking means that you can also skip the maximum capacity by magically being embarked without embarking.

If one applies, the other must apply. Arguing that only half of it applies with literally no rules support makes no sense. And that's what you're doing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
Point out in the rules where someone is required to go through embarking when a unit is deployed in its dedicated transport. You are the one making assumptions. Technically there is a loophole.

The only way to be embarked is to embark. That's why it's the past tense of the word.

You're making an assumption that there's a way to avoid embarking.

I asked you to point out in the rules where it's required. We are using the rules here, right? Simply point to where I am required to embark the unit onto the dedicated transport.

col_impact wrote:
I asked you to point out in the rules where it's required. We are using the rules here, right? Simply point to where I am required to embark the unit onto the dedicated transport.

How are you embarked if you did not embark?
Deploying into a transport does not mean you're embarked, using your argument.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I asked you to point out in the rules where it's required. We are using the rules here, right? Simply point to where I am required to embark the unit onto the dedicated transport.

How are you embarked if you did not embark?
Deploying into a transport does not mean you're embarked, using your argument.

The Combine Reserves rule designates it as pre-embarked when a unit is deployed in its dedicated transport. It happens by no action of the player.

Oberron wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
They still follow the Transport Capacity rules of "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."

Why are you picking and choosing which Transport Capacity rules are followed?
What is stopping the unit of 30 Orks from deploying into a Truck, using your argument?

I'm not saying those where the only ones they where following, I'm sorry you assumed I was saying those where the only ones. I picked that rule because it combines a lot of the core rules for Transport capacity, 1.) type of unit (Infantry) 2.) Transport maximum capacity. If they skip over the Embarking process they don't need to follow the only Infantry (not including Jump or jet-pack) can embark part since they are past that part, they don't have the bulky rule, and there are no constraints on types of models the night scythe can carry or embark on.


For giggles lets say I did mean that was the only rule. It says it right there up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity what is the capacity of a truk? not 30.

rigeld2 wrote:

There is no loophole - there only is if you assume it's possible to be embarked without following the embark rules.

This is what I am asking. Can a unit be embarked without following the "Embarking" rules?

This is the shenanigans I'm talking about. If you can ignore the type of model that is deploying/embarking ( still not clear yet) then what's to stop you from putting.... say three imperial knights in a drop pod? What about a few Dreadnoughts in a Land Raider? A WraithKnight in a Wave Serpent?
Using the rules as has been suggested could possibly break the game, and is definitely not RAI.
The RAW is still unclear to me and I think a quote of ALL the rules being used here is going to be needed to clear this up.

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I asked you to point out in the rules where it's required. We are using the rules here, right? Simply point to where I am required to embark the unit onto the dedicated transport.

How are you embarked if you did not embark?
Deploying into a transport does not mean you're embarked, using your argument.

The Combine Reserves rule designates it as pre-embarked when a unit is deployed in its dedicated transport. It happens by no action of the player.

Please explain how "specify if any units in Reserve are embarked" means you did not embark?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Oberron wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Oberron wrote:
They still follow the Transport Capacity rules of "A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."

Why are you picking and choosing which Transport Capacity rules are followed?
What is stopping the unit of 30 Orks from deploying into a Truck, using your argument?

I'm not saying those where the only ones they where following, I'm sorry you assumed I was saying those where the only ones. I picked that rule because it combines a lot of the core rules for Transport capacity, 1.) type of unit (Infantry) 2.) Transport maximum capacity. If they skip over the Embarking process they don't need to follow the only Infantry (not including Jump or jet-pack) can embark part since they are past that part, they don't have the bulky rule, and there are no constraints on types of models the night scythe can carry or embark on.


For giggles lets say I did mean that was the only rule. It says it right there up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity what is the capacity of a truk? not 30.

rigeld2 wrote:

There is no loophole - there only is if you assume it's possible to be embarked without following the embark rules.

This is what I am asking. Can a unit be embarked without following the "Embarking" rules?

This is the shenanigans I'm talking about. If you can ignore the type of model that is deploying/embarking ( still not clear yet) then what's to stop you from putting.... say three imperial knights in a drop pod? What about a few Dreadnoughts in a Land Raider? A WraithKnight in a Wave Serpent?
Using the rules as has been suggested could possibly break the game, and is definitely not RAI.
The RAW is still unclear to me and I think a quote of ALL the rules being used here is going to be needed to clear this up.

The loophole only exists for a unit and its dedicated transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I asked you to point out in the rules where it's required. We are using the rules here, right? Simply point to where I am required to embark the unit onto the dedicated transport.

How are you embarked if you did not embark?
Deploying into a transport does not mean you're embarked, using your argument.

The Combine Reserves rule designates it as pre-embarked when a unit is deployed in its dedicated transport. It happens by no action of the player.

Please explain how "specify if any units in Reserve are embarked" means you did not embark?

At what point did I embark them? They come already embarked.

rigeld2 wrote:

The capacity of a Truck is 12 Infantry models.

Unit type is a part of Transport Capacity. Meaning you have to meet *both*. So asserting that Jump Infantry can magically be embarked without embarking means that you can also skip the maximum capacity by magically being embarked without embarking.

If one applies, the other must apply. Arguing that only half of it applies with literally no rules support makes no sense. And that's what you're doing.
The only way to be embarked is to embark. That's why it's the past tense of the word.

You can't skip the maximum capacity "Each Transport vehicle has a maximum passenger capacity that can never be exceeded." That is pretty clear and has nothing to do with the "Embarking" rule or being embarked. If it is EVER exceeded you are breaking a rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

There is no loophole - there only is if you assume it's possible to be embarked without following the embark rules.

You're making an assumption that there's a way to avoid embarking.

Oberron wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The capacity of a Truck is 12 Infantry models.

Unit type is a part of Transport Capacity. Meaning you have to meet *both*. So asserting that Jump Infantry can magically be embarked without embarking means that you can also skip the maximum capacity by magically being embarked without embarking.

If one applies, the other must apply. Arguing that only half of it applies with literally no rules support makes no sense. And that's what you're doing.
The only way to be embarked is to embark. That's why it's the past tense of the word.

You can't skip the maximum capacity "Each Transport vehicle has a maximum passenger capacity that can never be exceeded." That is pretty clear and has nothing to do with the "Embarking" rule or being embarked. If it is EVER exceeded you are breaking a rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

There is no loophole - there only is if you assume it's possible to be embarked without following the embark rules.

You're making an assumption that there's a way to avoid embarking.

"Embarking" rule is "A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" of its Access Points in the Movement phase - Difficult and Dangerous terrain test should be taken as normal. The whole unit must be able to embark - if some models are out of range, the entire unit must stay outside. When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported..." there is more but it doesn't talk about Embarking just meaureing from the hull and movement of the vehicle.

If you are saying there is no way to avoid "Embarking" the rule then how can the lychguard or any unit in reserve for that matter be embarked on the transport? There isn't a movement phase yet, they aren't on the table. If embark is the process of "Embarking" then it is entirely skippable and be able to simply be embarked

I think Oberron is trolling. Why is this even a discussion?

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:


So the argument is that there is an innate difference between "Embarking" a unit and an "Embarked Unit", and that you don't necessarily have to have a unit embark to have them embarked in a transport.

Also isn't the rule for units and their dedidcated transports that only their units may "embark" upon them? If thats so what is the restriction from "deploying" other units into the dt. ( Not being accusatory, I am legitimately asking)

Bingo! You got it. That is what I have been asking since post 1.

Small clarification of DT is the rule you are thinking of brb pg 82 big red box"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle's entry."

Is it possible you are misremembering thinking it said embark and not carry? (also legitimate question) I think there is a big confusion in general of what carried and embark means.

Trolling indeed.

But it does a very good job of illustrating exactly why taking the idea of RAW to the extreme is a terrible idea. The rules are imperfectly written (to put it politely).

I'm curious if the people arguing that the step of embarking can be skipped would agree that I can attach the Independent Character riptide to my firewarriors, keep them in reserves and have them be embarked in their dedicated transport.

Oberron wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:


So the argument is that there is an innate difference between "Embarking" a unit and an "Embarked Unit", and that you don't necessarily have to have a unit embark to have them embarked in a transport.

Also isn't the rule for units and their dedidcated transports that only their units may "embark" upon them? If thats so what is the restriction from "deploying" other units into the dt. ( Not being accusatory, I am legitimately asking)

Bingo! You got it. That is what I have been asking since post 1.

Small clarification of DT is the rule you are thinking of brb pg 82 big red box"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly Infantry unit, subject to Transport Capacity and other special exclusions, as explained in the vehicle's entry."

Is it possible you are misremembering thinking it said embark and not carry? (also legitimate question) I think there is a big confusion in general of what carried and embark means.

Yeah, no rulebook on me right now just remembering off the top of my head. Thanks for understanding