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Hey guys, a quick question about charging from an infiltrated transport. Is this at all possible, because the unit inside didn't really infiltrate? For example with Huron Blackheart's Warlord Trait if I infiltrate a Land Raider (HS choice) can the Termies, which are a seperate choice and have not been given the Infiltrate special rule, charge on turn 1?
I would personally say that they can't, but I'd like to know your opinions.

No as the unit with infiltrate HAS to deploy using the infiltrate rules. Thus can not assault turn 1 even if deployed in your deployment zone. Whilst a unit without infiltrate would not be able to deploy inside an infiltrating transport as the unit would have had to be deployed before the transport infiltrated.

Change that to scout and the transport can scout redeploy with the unit staying deployed inside and therefore being allowed to assault.

 FlingitNow wrote:
No as the unit with infiltrate HAS to deploy using the infiltrate rules. Thus can not assault turn 1 even if deployed in your deployment zone. Whilst a unit without infiltrate would not be able to deploy inside an infiltrating transport as the unit would have had to be deployed before the transport infiltrated.

Change that to scout and the transport can scout redeploy with the unit staying deployed inside and therefore being allowed to assault.

Change my yes to a no. The situation the OP presents can never happen because of this timing issue.

Sorry for the brain fart.

Ah, thanks. Never thought of that timing problem. That makes it perfectly clear, I'll have to take the LR as a dedicated transport and then infiltrate the termies( not charging turn 1 sadly).

 Lord Actarus wrote:
Ah, thanks. Never thought of that timing problem. That makes it perfectly clear, I'll have to take the LR as a dedicated transport and then infiltrate the termies( not charging turn 1 sadly).

I may be wrong, but I don't believe land raiders are assault vehicles, so you can't assault out of them to begin with.

Trust me, Land Raiders are assault vehicles. They'd be pretty useless if they weren't, since their primary job is to transport terminator deathstars and blood claws/crusader squads

Land Raiders are indeed assault vehicles.

BUT. this brings up another question. Units inside scouted vehicles can assault?

Well that brings the idea of the liber heresius inquisitor in a land radier full of termies back to a really good idea.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Lord Actarus wrote:
Ah, thanks. Never thought of that timing problem. That makes it perfectly clear, I'll have to take the LR as a dedicated transport and then infiltrate the termies( not charging turn 1 sadly).

I may be wrong, but I don't believe land raiders are assault vehicles, so you can't assault out of them to begin with.

Not only are Land raiders assault vehicles but the entire rule was initially invented for them (like EW and Phoenix Lords).

 Icculus wrote:


BUT. this brings up another question. Units inside scouted vehicles can assault?

Well that brings the idea of the liber heresius inquisitor in a land radier full of termies back to a really good idea.

I'm not sure if you can. It says in the BRB that you can't make an assault in turn 1 if the unit has made a scout move. But technically, the LR made the scout move, not the Terminators. It's iffy though...

 Lord Actarus wrote:

 Icculus wrote:


BUT. this brings up another question. Units inside scouted vehicles can assault?

Well that brings the idea of the liber heresius inquisitor in a land radier full of termies back to a really good idea.

I'm not sure if you can. It says in the BRB that you can't make an assault in turn 1 if the unit has made a scout move. But technically, the LR made the scout move, not the Terminators. It's iffy though...

Oh wait, the liber heresius gives HIS unit scout. and the scout confers to the dedicated transport of the Land Raider. So nevermind. this wouldnt work.

 Icculus wrote:

 Lord Actarus wrote:

 Icculus wrote:


BUT. this brings up another question. Units inside scouted vehicles can assault?

Well that brings the idea of the liber heresius inquisitor in a land radier full of termies back to a really good idea.

I'm not sure if you can. It says in the BRB that you can't make an assault in turn 1 if the unit has made a scout move. But technically, the LR made the scout move, not the Terminators. It's iffy though...

Oh wait, the liber heresius gives HIS unit scout. and the scout confers to the dedicated transport of the Land Raider. So nevermind. this wouldnt work.

It still works as the unit has given the DT the scout rule, but still only the DT has scouted. This was iffy in 6th but the 7th Ed Work codex clarified this by creating an entire special rule stop the Scout Battlewagon formation from allowing units inside to assault. Which illustrates that the RaI here lines up with the RaW that thge unit can assault as it has not made a scout redeployment.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

 Lord Actarus wrote:

 Icculus wrote:


BUT. this brings up another question. Units inside scouted vehicles can assault?

Well that brings the idea of the liber heresius inquisitor in a land radier full of termies back to a really good idea.

I'm not sure if you can. It says in the BRB that you can't make an assault in turn 1 if the unit has made a scout move. But technically, the LR made the scout move, not the Terminators. It's iffy though...

Oh wait, the liber heresius gives HIS unit scout. and the scout confers to the dedicated transport of the Land Raider. So nevermind. this wouldnt work.

It still works as the unit has given the DT the scout rule, but still only the DT has scouted. This was iffy in 6th but the 7th Ed Work codex clarified this by creating an entire special rule stop the Scout Battlewagon formation from allowing units inside to assault. Which illustrates that the RaI here lines up with the RaW that thge unit can assault as it has not made a scout redeployment.

Can you quote or provide a link? This sounds wrong. I don't get how an infiltrated DT can't assault but a Scouted DT can.

Because an Infiltrated DT can't have a unit that didn't Infiltrate inside of it, because of when the DT has to deploy.

Same reason an IC with Infiltrate can't "bring along" a unit without Infiltrate.

rigeld2 wrote:
Because an Infiltrated DT can't have a unit that didn't Infiltrate inside of it, because of when the DT has to deploy.

Same reason an IC with Infiltrate can't "bring along" a unit without Infiltrate.

But a scouted DT can?

Yes because you can be deployed in your transport during normal deployment (so the unit has not yet used scout). Then during the scout phase you scout redeploy the transport (and the unit is still where it was originally deployed - in the transport so still hasn't made a scout redeployment).

Its a matter of placement and deployment. There are steps. First, deploy all models on the board. If you have a unit that is going in to a transport, you have to declare that the models are being deployed in to the transport.

If you move on to the infiltrate step and infiltrate a DT. then the models being deployed in the DT are themselves infiltrating.

 jreilly89 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because an Infiltrated DT can't have a unit that didn't Infiltrate inside of it, because of when the DT has to deploy.

Same reason an IC with Infiltrate can't "bring along" a unit without Infiltrate.

But a scouted DT can?

Yes, because there's no timing issue.

Let's say you have a Termie unit and a Tank.

Infiltrate:
You want the Termy unit to assault, so you don't give them the Infiltrate rule. Note that if they had Infiltrate, they couldn't assault as deploying Infiltrated isn't optional.
You deploy them. Note that the Tank isn't on the table, so you can't deploy them there.
Now it's the Infiltrate deployment step - Tank Infiltrates. It's too late to embark the unit on Tank, so no assaulting from the tank.

Scout:
Give Termies the Scout rule. Their DT gets it automagically.
Deploy Tank. Deploy Termies in Tank.
Scout time! Scout Tank. Termies did not Scout. Termies can assault.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because an Infiltrated DT can't have a unit that didn't Infiltrate inside of it, because of when the DT has to deploy.

Same reason an IC with Infiltrate can't "bring along" a unit without Infiltrate.

But a scouted DT can?

Yes, because there's no timing issue.

Let's say you have a Termie unit and a Tank.

Infiltrate:
You want the Termy unit to assault, so you don't give them the Infiltrate rule. Note that if they had Infiltrate, they couldn't assault as deploying Infiltrated isn't optional.
You deploy them. Note that the Tank isn't on the table, so you can't deploy them there.
Now it's the Infiltrate deployment step - Tank Infiltrates. It's too late to embark the unit on Tank, so no assaulting from the tank.

Scout:
Give Termies the Scout rule. Their DT gets it automagically.
Deploy Tank. Deploy Termies in Tank.
Scout time! Scout Tank. Termies did not Scout. Termies can assault.

Thats freaking bananas. Anyone know of a way to give a Chaplain and DW Knights Scout?

 jreilly89 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because an Infiltrated DT can't have a unit that didn't Infiltrate inside of it, because of when the DT has to deploy.

Same reason an IC with Infiltrate can't "bring along" a unit without Infiltrate.

But a scouted DT can?

Yes, because there's no timing issue.

Let's say you have a Termie unit and a Tank.

Infiltrate:
You want the Termy unit to assault, so you don't give them the Infiltrate rule. Note that if they had Infiltrate, they couldn't assault as deploying Infiltrated isn't optional.
You deploy them. Note that the Tank isn't on the table, so you can't deploy them there.
Now it's the Infiltrate deployment step - Tank Infiltrates. It's too late to embark the unit on Tank, so no assaulting from the tank.

Scout:
Give Termies the Scout rule. Their DT gets it automagically.
Deploy Tank. Deploy Termies in Tank.
Scout time! Scout Tank. Termies did not Scout. Termies can assault.

Thats freaking bananas. Anyone know of a way to give a Chaplain and DW Knights Scout?

Take an inquisition ally.
An inquisitor with the liber heresius can give his unit Scout. Stick them in a dedicated Land Raider. BAM! Plus the inquisitor with that item is only 40 points.
Well the inquisitor needs to pass a ld10 check first, but yeah. Then on subsequent turns he can give them fear or split fire, or hatred (the chaplain already does that though).

I know how to give normal termies and their LR scout, Khan!

But how are those termies moving? Because of scout. Can't charge.

 Lobukia wrote:
But how are those termies moving? Because of scout. Can't charge.

Nope. Termies didn't move. At all. They embarked and stay embarked.

 Lobukia wrote:
I know how to give normal termies and their LR scout, Khan!

But how are those termies moving? Because of scout. Can't charge.

They aren't moving they are staying their transport.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I know how to give normal termies and their LR scout, Khan!

But how are those termies moving? Because of scout. Can't charge.

They aren't moving they are staying their transport.

You and your sidekicks say the darnedest things.

extremely narrow reading of the rules, sure it's RAW. But if you actually try it, you're well into TFG territory.

ya just the transport moved, it's not like transports moving ever affect the passengers.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I know how to give normal termies and their LR scout, Khan!

But how are those termies moving? Because of scout. Can't charge.

They aren't moving they are staying their transport.

You and your sidekicks say the darnedest things.

extremely narrow reading of the rules, sure it's RAW. But if you actually try it, you're well into TFG territory.

ya just the transport moved, it's not like transports moving ever affect the passengers.

Ha Rigeld you're my sidekick apparently, genius.

Still convinced the rulebook lies to you? Yes we know the transport redpolying will have an effect on the Terminators but it is up to you to prove that they have made a scout redeployment (and thus revoke their permission to charge). RaW and RaI clearly lines up here so why bother trying to enforce your made up rules on people? Are you that desperate to win you'll do anything to get rulings in your favour?

 FlingitNow wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I know how to give normal termies and their LR scout, Khan!

But how are those termies moving? Because of scout. Can't charge.

They aren't moving they are staying their transport.

You and your sidekicks say the darnedest things.

extremely narrow reading of the rules, sure it's RAW. But if you actually try it, you're well into TFG territory.

ya just the transport moved, it's not like transports moving ever affect the passengers.

Ha Rigeld you're my sidekick apparently, genius.

Still convinced the rulebook lies to you? Yes we know the transport redpolying will have an effect on the Terminators but it is up to you to prove that they have made a scout redeployment (and thus revoke their permission to charge). RaW and RaI clearly lines up here so why bother trying to enforce your made up rules on people? Are you that desperate to win you'll do anything to get rulings in your favour?

Convince me already, stop with the nonsense and prove RAW=RAI here.

The rulebook lies to me? LOL what kind of delusions are you having.

How about some quotes? That will make both sides happy.

 jreilly89 wrote:
How about some quotes? That will make both sides happy.

Let's go with this example since it was posted earlier:

Scout:
Give Termies the Scout rule. Their DT gets it automagically.
Deploy Tank. Deploy Termies in Tank.
Scout time! Scout Tank. Termies did not Scout. Termies can assault.

I said RAW it holds up, but I highly doubt that's the intent. Because the termies grant scout to their transport which allows the transport to move. The only reason the trasport got to scout move was because of the unit inside.

If you had to measure to the embarked unit, you would use the hull of the transport. If you did that before and after the scout move would the location be the same?

To try and say only the transport moved because the unit in side granted it an ability to do so, yet the unit inside didn't move sounds really dirty and unintended to me. YMMY, play it how you'd like, trying it with me as your opponent will be meet with looks of condemnation & derision.

We've explained the relevant rules argue against the points made. Or find quotes that prove us wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Read the Ghazghul supplement mentioned above for how the GW design team think this works.

Its a good thing that moving a transport doesn't count as the unit inside having moved... oh yeah... nuts

Well then its a good thing that coming in from reserves in a transport lets the embarked unit pretend it didn't come in from reserves... dang, nm

If the unit gets redeployed, looks like the unit inside got redeployed too... no assaulting, sorry gents

A) If a rhino with a devastator squad inside moves, the devastators count as moving and can only snap fire.

B) If a LR with termies in it scouts, the termies inside count as having scouted.

Why would A be correct, but B be incorrect? When a transport moves, the models in it move. When a transport scouts, a form of free movement, the models in it have also scouted, or performed a free movement.

In the case of the devastators, the rules of moving apply to them even though all they did was "stay embarked". As for the terminators, the rules of scout apply even though all they did was "stay embarked".

Is there any difference between these two examples other than the style of movement taking place?