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OK, I am trying to keep this fluffy (you know.... to help forge the narrative). I am just wondering how well this list might perform.

Ahriman

9 Thousand Sons w/ Rhino
9 Thousand Sons w/ Rhino

Heldrake
3x Chaos Bikers (2x Meltaguns)
5x Raptors (2x Meltaguns)

2x Obliterators (Mark of Tzeentch)
Predator (TL LC, LC sponsons)

ALLIES
Herald of Tzeentch (ML3) w/ exalted rewards (portaglyph)
10x Pink Horrors
Soul Grinder of Tzeentch (w/ phlegm)

Needless to say, I am desperately trying to make Thousand Sons work, but I am not\ sure if their point cost can be overcome.
Bikers and Raptors are there to serve as suicide units to take out armor.
I fell like I have power armor covered with more than enough AP3.
Hordes might pose a problem with my low model count.

One other option I was tinkering with was to make a sort of daemonic altar the size of a skyshield (and then use it as a skyshield). I would place the obliterators and soul grinder on this to give them a 3++ and 4++ rerolling ones respectively. If I managed to get cursed earth, I could hide the herald nearby moving those up to a 2++ and 3++ rerollable (if allowed).
Intent is to have thousand sons tie up enough stuff while the herald summons as much as possible (while using the portaglyph as a warp charge battery).

Before commenting, I do know that thousand sons are bad and my oblits need mark of nurgle. This is a tzeentch themed list, so my only constraint is to keep things mono-God. Otherwise, critique away.

Skyshield idea is sound, but if you are going to camp in it, make sure it has enough guns. You can also use it to deploy a helldrake T1 (with a 4++)

Try and add in another horror (or 6) for cheap warpcharge.

Ahriman is a lot of points. If you're not going to make use of his infiltrateyness to full effect, then maybe a regular sorceror is more efficient.

The Predator is going to isolated and destroyed on the first turn without saturation on the table since the Soul Grinder is going to be positioned on a Skyshield.

If you want an AT unit, what about swapping the Predator for an Allied unit of Screamers? This would complement your other two aggressive AT units, but giving you the option of Summoning more Screamers in later turns.

To help handle hordes, you could upgrade the Rhinos to take Havoc launchers.

 Aurelian wrote:
The Predator is going to isolated and destroyed on the first turn without saturation on the table since the Soul Grinder is going to be positioned on a Skyshield.

If you want an AT unit, what about swapping the Predator for an Allied unit of Screamers? This would complement your other two aggressive AT units, but giving you the option of Summoning more Screamers in later turns.

To help handle hordes, you could upgrade the Rhinos to take Havoc launchers.

Who says I can't park a soul grinder AND a predator on the sky shield? It might be a bit cozy up there, but I think you could squeeze all that on there. However, I do like the idea of the screamers. I just need to paint those then.

I had havocs on the rhinos, but this is a recession, and I had to take them off for budget cuts.

I will also tinker around with a non-Ahriman list. It makes me sad not to have him in a T-Sons list, but we do what we must for the Dark Gods.

Parking the grinder on the skyshield could be pretty hilarious if you roll cursed earth with the herald. Not too killy but stupid durable with a 3++ rerolling 1s

OK. Reworked the list based on some input. How does this fare:

Sorceror (MoT, ML3, Sigil, Spell Familiar)

9 x Thousand Sons w/ Rhino (havoc launcher)
9 x Thousand Sons w/ Rhino (havoc launcher)

Heldrake
3x Chaos Bikers (2 meltaguns)
5x Chaos Raptors (2 meltaguns)

2x Obiliterators (MoT)

Skyshield Landing Pad

Herald of Tzeentch (ML3, Exalted Rewrds - portaglyph)

11x Pink Horrors

4x Screamers of Tzeentch

Soul Grinder (DoT, Phlegm)

- Oblits and Soul Grinder camp out on the skyshield parking lot... er ... I mean landing pad rocking a 3++ and 4++ (rerolling 1s) respectively. If I can get the herald or horrors to get cursed earth, even better.
- Screamers, bikers, and raptors harass as best they can until they give themselves over to the Dark Gods.
- T-Sons target target power armored nuissances
- Heldrake provides what limited anti-air that it can
- Herald and portaglyph summon like crazy to get the warp charge count up. (Starting at 10 and hopefully going up turn 1).
- Cry shamelessly as I am tabled by turn 4?

I have had success with my T sons by running them as slightly smaller units. I know you are paying more of a tax for the sorcerors but have been able to mitigate losses. Its easier to fit more demons in to supplement as well!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have had success with my T sons by running them as slightly smaller units. I know you are paying more of a tax for the sorcerors but have been able to mitigate losses. Its easier to fit more demons in to supplement as well!

Without beating this dead horse to death, after some tinkering, I think this is how I am going to run it.

CSM
Chaos Sorceror (MoT, Sigil)
5x Thousand Sons w/ Rhino
5x Thousand Sons w/ Rhino
Heldrake
3x Chaos Bikers (2 meltaguns)
5x Chaos Raptors (2 meltaguns)
2x Obliterators (MoT)
5x Havoc Squad (MoT, 4x autocannons)

Chaos Daemons Allies
Herald of Tzeentch (ML3, Disc of Tzeentch, Exalted Rewards)
11x Pink Horrors
11x Pink Horrors
3x Screamers of Tzeentch
Soul Grinder (DoT, Phlegm)

Skyshield Landing Pad (Ready for Takeoff)

Major changes
Drastically reduced the points of the sorceror. Having to roll on Change discipline with chaos focus made me wonder what I would be using him for
Added disc to the herald so he can scoot about with screamers if needed.
Added horror squad of 11 to make up for lost warp charge (Plus more rolls on daemonology chart)
Reduced T-sons to bare minimum. While I wanted this to be a T-Sons army, it just doesn't seem feasible.
Added Havocs to give more long range punch. They plan to hang out on the skyshield where the MoT should help make them more resilient.

It looks lean (and MSU). While your Thousand Sons aren't "favored" with squad sizes of 9, it doesn't stop the list from being "Thousand Sons" because you have them represented. It's simply not an automaton-heavy army, which isn't a horrible thing for fluff purposes. Perhaps this is simply a small vanguard with a small bodyguard of them. It's all good. If only a Chaos Sorcerer on a Disc of Tzeentch was able to join a unit of Screamers and not Chaos Bikes or Chaos Spawn.

List looks grand. Just to note, 11 horrors gets you an extra charge but doesn't give you another roll for a power

Captyn_Bob wrote:
List looks grand. Just to note, 11 horrors gets you an extra charge but doesn't give you another roll for a power

Sorry. I meant another roll for having a second unit of them, not for going up to 11.

Looks good, but I notice you fall in a pattern typical of Tzeentch-CSM players of having Daemon allies take up an increasingly larger percentage of your army Not saying it's a bad thing, just an observation.

Are you able to fit Havocs, a Heldrake and a Soul Grinder on the landing pad at once, or will the Grinder have to move on after the Heldrake has moved off?

I assume the Sorcerer is given a Sigil to prevent giving up Slay the Warlord, but remember that you can have any Character from your Primary be your WL, including the Havoc sergeant

GrafWattenburg wrote:
Looks good, but I notice you fall in a pattern typical of Tzeentch-CSM players of having Daemon allies take up an increasingly larger percentage of your army Not saying it's a bad thing, just an observation.

Are you able to fit Havocs, a Heldrake and a Soul Grinder on the landing pad at once, or will the Grinder have to move on after the Heldrake has moved off?

I assume the Sorcerer is given a Sigil to prevent giving up Slay the Warlord, but remember that you can have any Character from your Primary be your WL, including the Havoc sergeant

I noticed that too. I really wanted more troops, but the cost of T-sons makes that prohibitive. So, I opted to add more horrors.
I think I am going to drop the sigil from the sorceror and add another screamer. The more I think about it, he is only really there to unlock the T-sons as troops. Since he is now down to ML1 he will not be very useful (unless he gets doom bolt I suppose) My best bet I think is to hide him away so I do not give up Slay the Warlord.

As for the landing pad, I think it would be very cozy, but I believe I can squeeze them all on there if I need to. Otherwise, the soul grinder would sit behind it and walk on once the Heldrake flys away. I am not totally sold on having the heldrake there if I go second. Since it needs to remain in hover, I would rather try to get cursed earth off so it would have a 3+ invul save while it is easy to hit.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Parking the grinder on the skyshield could be pretty hilarious if you roll cursed earth with the herald. Not too killy but stupid durable with a 3++ rerolling 1s

Doesn't the skyshield offer a fixed 4++? Aren't fixed modifiers always applied last? So wouldn't the grinder only benefit from a 4++ at most? +1 from cursed earth to the grinders natural 5++ or from the skyshield itself.

The Skyshield states that models on top (with it furled) have a 4+ invul save from shooting attacks.

I will double check the Cursed Earth wording, but I thought it stated models with the daemon special rule get +1 to their save if within 12".

The obliterators and havocs would get the +1 to their invul for having the Mark.

The Soul grinder should have a 3++ rerolling ones.

 Green is Best! wrote:
The Skyshield states that models on top (with it furled) have a 4+ invul save from shooting attacks.

I will double check the Cursed Earth wording, but I thought it stated models with the daemon special rule get +1 to their save if within 12".

The obliterators and havocs would get the +1 to their invul for having the Mark.

The Soul grinder should have a 3++ rerolling ones.

Correct, cursed modifies the grinder, not the skyshield. So even if the grinder was on the skyshield cursed earth is only modifying the grinders 5++ giving him a 4++, so at most the grinder is getting 4++ not a 3++.

Necronic Angel wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:
The Skyshield states that models on top (with it furled) have a 4+ invul save from shooting attacks.

I will double check the Cursed Earth wording, but I thought it stated models with the daemon special rule get +1 to their save if within 12".

The obliterators and havocs would get the +1 to their invul for having the Mark.

The Soul grinder should have a 3++ rerolling ones.

Correct, cursed modifies the grinder, not the skyshield. So even if the grinder was on the skyshield cursed earth is only modifying the grinders 5++ giving him a 4++, so at most the grinder is getting 4++ not a 3++.

But the grinder has a 4++ from being on the Skyshield, which is then improved to a 3++, no?

GrafWattenburg wrote:

Necronic Angel wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:
The Skyshield states that models on top (with it furled) have a 4+ invul save from shooting attacks.

I will double check the Cursed Earth wording, but I thought it stated models with the daemon special rule get +1 to their save if within 12".

The obliterators and havocs would get the +1 to their invul for having the Mark.

The Soul grinder should have a 3++ rerolling ones.

Correct, cursed modifies the grinder, not the skyshield. So even if the grinder was on the skyshield cursed earth is only modifying the grinders 5++ giving him a 4++, so at most the grinder is getting 4++ not a 3++.

But the grinder has a 4++ from being on the Skyshield, which is then improved to a 3++, no?

You can look at it 2 ways.

1) The skyshield is providing a 4++ for models on it, it is not modifying their invulnerable save. Essentially the skyshield has the 4++ not the models on it. Cursed earth modifies models with the deamon rule with a +1 invul. The skyshield is not daemon does not benefit, the grinder is so his natural 5++ becomes a 4++.

2) The skyshield modifies the models invuln. It is a flat modifier, per rules order of applied modifiers are 1: X modifiers, 2:+/- modifiers, 3: Flat number modifiers. So the order would be grinder has a 5++, +1 for cursed earth to 4++, then a flat modifier to 4++ from the skyshield.

Either way the best the grinder can get is a 4++.

The Skyshield has potential to be a worthwhile Fortification, but without Structure Points, most TOs don't allow them as they aren't "killable".

I don't agree that the Skyshield's Invulnerable Save is a "set" value, as it's like taking Cover (which can be modified), and similar to the Aura of Dark Glory and SoC wargear which can be modified.

The skyshield's rule states "any model on it has a 4+ invulnerable save from shooting attacks."

Mark of Tzeentch says any model with this mark has its invul save improved by 1 to a max of 3+

Cursed Earth states that any model with the daemon rule has its invul save improved by 1 (normally a 4+ with a daemon save) and explicitly states that it is cumulative / stacks with other benefits.

As far as I can tell, this is completely legitimate and within the rules. Anyways, I just started a thread on YMDC for this portion of it

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/636678.page

So, rules disputes can go there. List comments remain here.

Thanks

Looks like you're just wasting points by paying a HQ tax that won't achieve anything to get a pair of min scoring units that won't achieve much and cost too much. If you want a TSons army, there's no point skimping on the Sorc or the amount of TSons. Just accept that they are terrible and enjoy putting them on the table.

The screamers are a waste as unless you're putting the grimoure on them (without fateweavers re-roll I might add), they're going to get shot down quite quickly and you'de be better off putting your herald into one of the horrors.. If you are going to grimoure them, then they're not really large enough to achieve anything, and you should look at dropping a unit of horrors to grab 4 more screamers.