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I think that in order to bring balance to the infantry units in 40k we need to make it so ap3 and higher doesn't affect vehicles anymore( excluding fliers) Sound counterintuitive?
Here's my reasoning: The way it is now you can reliably kill everything reliably from infantry to Av 12 with massed s7+ ap3 fire and so you can kill all these things without really needing any high AP weapons.
If you remove the ability of ap3 to kill vehicles armies would have to bring higher ap weapons and focus less on plasma type spam.

If people are forced to take more AP then infantry will be able better because the format will have to shift to take care of vehicles effectively.
Flyers are already strong enough that they would be op with this rule though.

The same general premise was used to come up with what I consider to be a much better idea in the form of armor saves for vehicles, that are bypassable via AP just like normal armor saves.
Search up hull saves or something in this forum.

Hull Saves I think would make a worthwhile difference to Vehicles.

I think a first easy step would be double the number of Hullpoints that every vehicle has, and change the Vehicle Damage table to the following.

1-3: Crew Shaken
4-5: Crew Stunned
6: Weapon Destroyed
7: Immobilised
8: Explode!.

AP2 weapons give +2 to the result, AP1 weapons give +3.

So now you need twice the amount of Glancing Hits to down a vehicle, whilst weapons that aren't AP3 or worse can't outright destroy a vehicle.

I don't feel like doubling hullpoints is a good idea because then imp knights would have 12 a piece....

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I don't feel like doubling hullpoints is a good idea because then imp knights would have 12 a piece....

I wouldn't mind doubling hullpoints as long as penetrating hits ate away 2 hullpoints instead of 1.

It would make vehicles more difficult to glance to death, while penetrating hits would still be potentially devastating (which is the point).

I also agree with GoonBandito regarding his proposed vehicle damage table. AP3 or worse weapons should not be able to immobilise a vehicle.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:I think that in order to bring balance to the infantry units in 40k we need to make it so ap3 and higher doesn't affect vehicles anymore..... bring higher ap weapons and focus less on plasma type spam.

Plasma is AP2, how would this stop plasma spam? At the same time, krak missiles can't hurt vehicles anymore?

GoonBandito wrote:I think a first easy step would be double the number of Hullpoints that every vehicle has, and change the Vehicle Damage table to the following.

1-3: Crew Shaken
4-5: Crew Stunned
6: Weapon Destroyed
7: Immobilised
8: Explode!.

AP2 weapons give +2 to the result, AP1 weapons give +3.

So now you need twice the amount of Glancing Hits to down a vehicle, whilst weapons that aren't AP3 or worse can't outright destroy a vehicle.

I'd genuinely be afraid of something like rhino spam. They're meant to deliver troops to the battlefield, not ferry them around for the entire game laughing as anything short of a volley of lascannons can hurt them.

Consider too the more durable vehicles, everything from land raiders up to knights. If your goal is to make everyone stop using foot infantry, you'll succeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Korinov wrote:
AP3 or worse weapons should not be able to immobilise a vehicle.

Including missiles?

Plasma strength spam( ie7) which some armies take en masse( looking at you Tau

Tau have s6 plazma.

I'm just going go to sleep now. I can't seem to remember any of this stuff correctly....
Anyways you get the point and I will look up that other idea you mentioned.

An easy way to deal with it would be an AP weapon test:
Any time you get a glance or a crew shaken/stunned result, you have to roll equal or higher than the weapon AP. If you do, you strip 1 hull point, otherwise none.

this would working well with actual vehicle rules, no need to change damage sheets or other.

the main advantage would be not only to make vehicles more resilient, but that an AP6 weapons is no more the same than an AP3.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
AP3 or worse weapons should not be able to immobilise a vehicle.

Including missiles?

Perhaps the problem comes from the fact that missiles - supposedly - designed to deal with vehicles and heavy armored opponents in general are actually outperformed by such a vast amount of weaponry in the game. Maybe the game currently has just too many AP2 weapons.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
An easy way to deal with it would be an AP weapon test:
Any time you get a glance or a crew shaken/stunned result, you have to roll equal or higher than the weapon AP. If you do, you strip 1 hull point, otherwise none.

this would working well with actual vehicle rules, no need to change damage sheets or other.

the main advantage would be not only to make vehicles more resilient, but that an AP6 weapons is no more the same than an AP3.

Make this the Vehicle Save. Instead of getting an Armour save, they must roll equal to or below the AP of the weapon in order to ignore hull point (other effects are as normal). They'll last longer, but you can still rattle them.

In my little world, vehicles have normal armour saves (based on front armour, going from 5+ for 10 to 3+ for 14).

Now, the real trick to curtail mid-power weapon spam and stop death by 3 glances is to make glancing hits ignore AP (or say the save is invulnerable vs glances).

The problem with the initial concept is that common AP4 weapons like Autocannons, which clearly should have some anti-vehicle capability, would be make useless in that role.

The issue with is twofold. First is that vehicles still have two kill mechanisms and function like Toughness based units (but with no save) while still having to deal with a damage chart.

Second, I think at this point the Vehicle rules are trying to cover too broad a spectrum of units.

HP's might make sense for something like a Trukk or a Vyper, where some hits may pass clean through without causing any major damage, but knock enough stuff off and the thing just falls apart.

But for actual *tanks*? HPs don't really make much sense there. Either something penetrates the tank and hits something important and there's a big boom (or the crew say "it's ****ed, run away!) or the thing keeps going.

Honestly, the simplest thing is probably either to just move back to the old damage table entirely a-la-5E, or ditch the damage table and make them Toughness units with a Save.