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So, I was looking through the Space Marines book the other day, and in particular the variety of special weapons that are available. Especially when compared to some of the other Imperial armies.

And I wondered, "why is the Astartes Grenade Launcher limited to only Scout Bikers?" Would it be broken, OP, horrible, evil, etc ad nauseum, for the Astartes Grenade Launcher to be included as a special weapon choice?

Ancillary to that, would it be similarly terrible for the heavy flamer to be a heavy weapon choice?

Could this work, be balanced, and be fun?

Combi-Launcher maybe? As for the heavy flamer, Blood Angels have it, so I agree SM should have it.

Grenade launcher as special weapon for five points? Yup. Go ahead. No good reason against it.

Even though the Space Marine version is Rapid Fire instead of Assault 1? I mean, I do agree, and truthfully I'm trying to find reasons why it's a bad idea simply because it seems dumb that nobody has ever thought of this before in the history of 40K.

Honestly it's more likely that GW has looked at it, scratched their heads, and said "naaaah..." with the justification that then they'd have to give you GL parts for your Tac Marines.

Generic Marines don't get heavy flamers in their squads because that's the Salamanders and the Sisters' schtick.

Tactical squads don't have heavy flamers because the reason they have a heavy weapon is to support the squads that are near them. Like with supporting shots. From a remote location.

AnomanderRake wrote:Honestly it's more likely that GW has looked at it, scratched their heads, and said "naaaah..." with the justification that then they'd have to give you GL parts for your Tac Marines.

le sigh. GeeDubs just has the dumbs a lot, I guess. I mean, they could probably even milk it by selling separate bitz packs of Astartes GLs, or even just saying that you can convert using IG GLs... which means that you need to either know a IG player who'll part with spare GL bits, or that you'll need to be IG kits to get the bits.

Furyou Miko wrote:Generic Marines don't get heavy flamers in their squads because that's the Salamanders and the Sisters' shtick.

Except that Generic Marines can take heavy flamers in Sternguard Squads, Salamanders are represented using the Generic Marine book, and the BA book allows their squads to take heavy flamers as a heavy option. That being said, I'm actually fine with Tacs not being able to take heavy flamers. It was just one of those things where I pretty much went "Sternguard in the same book can take them, but Tacs can't?" Seemed a bit odd to me.

pelicaniforce wrote:Tactical squads don't have heavy flamers because the reason they have a heavy weapon is to support the squads that are near them. Like with supporting shots. From a remote location.

The problem with that is that Multi-Meltas have pitiful range (for a heavy weapon), and the special weapons are all either equal (PlasGuns, and potentially Astartes GLs) in range to a bolter, or are lesser (Meltas, Flamers, Grav). There's also no indication that the heavy weapon in a Tac squad is for supporting other squads. In fact, I would argue that the heavy weapon in a Tac squad is there for one of two reasons (depending on the choice made):

1) Enhance the primary role of the squad (anti-infantry fire, with HB, PCs, and Frag ML)
2) Diversify the squad's engagement profile (LC, MM, Krak/Flakk ML, PC)

Obviously there are some weapons that overlap- Plasma Cannons have sufficient strength and AP to be a potential threat to light armor, on top of the blast template and good range that makes them usable against infantry and a great way to force enemy infantry to "spread out or die". Missile Launchers are fairly obvious in this respect, given that different "ammo" choice allows you to engage different targets.

I just can't see a marine wanting to take a grenade launcher for some reason. They take plasma for dealing with armor, flamers for hordes, melta for tanks, bolters deal with everything else. Grenade launchers would just be a "meh" upgrade over a bolter.

Plus, grenade launchers wouldn't be able to carry as much ammo as a bolter, and marines might be out in the field of battle for days. I just think if they're going to take a specialized weapon they would prefer something else.

On the other hand, guard need something like a grenade launcher to make up for lasguns being terrible, and they don't carry grenades usually. At the same time, guard will typically have supply lines set up to rearm as needed, or at least have vehicles following them that can carry supplies.

The grenade launcher is supposed to be multirole; it's not as good as a plasma gun at killing heavy stuff or as a flamer at killing swarms but it's better than both at the other gun's job in one gun. The same argument could be made that missile launchers are pointless because they're outperformed against any specific target by a specialized weapon, you take the generalist gun when you don't know what you're going to be fighting (in-lore, anyway).

That said the Ravenwing have access to different/fancier grenades, I don't see any reason why normal Marines couldn't have a broader loadout than just frag/krak (though definitely not just replicating Black Knights' grenades).

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The grenade launcher is supposed to be multirole; it's not as good as a plasma gun at killing heavy stuff or as a flamer at killing swarms but it's better than both at the other gun's job in one gun. The same argument could be made that missile launchers are pointless because they're outperformed against any specific target by a specialized weapon, you take the generalist gun when you don't know what you're going to be fighting (in-lore, anyway).

Hadn't considered the missile launcher, I guess that does make sense (excluding flak missiles I suppose). I just kind of look at grenade launchers as inferior to other Astartes weapons, and only accept them on bikes because it's obviously hard to throw a grenade when you're cruising along on one. Missile launchers have the coolness factor of a marine can carry one on his own when it takes two guardsmen to operate one.

That said the Ravenwing have access to different/fancier grenades, I don't see any reason why normal Marines couldn't have a broader loadout than just frag/krak (though definitely not just replicating Black Knights' grenades).

Never considered the idea of other armies getting fun grenades... would a flashbang of sorts fit fluff? You're right about Ravenwing though, not sure if I want other armies to get access to our toys.

Grenade launchers would be better choice for mobile tac squads than a missle launcher due to the grendade launcher being assault where the missile launcher is heavy.

a tac squad with grenade launchers and shotguns would make for an interesting cc squad.

kingbobbito wrote:Hadn't considered the missile launcher, I guess that does make sense (excluding flak missiles I suppose). I just kind of look at grenade launchers as inferior to other Astartes weapons, and only accept them on bikes because it's obviously hard to throw a grenade when you're cruising along on one. Missile launchers have the coolness factor of a marine can carry one on his own when it takes two guardsmen to operate one.

That said the Ravenwing have access to different/fancier grenades, I don't see any reason why normal Marines couldn't have a broader loadout than just frag/krak (though definitely not just replicating Black Knights' grenades).

Never considered the idea of other armies getting fun grenades... would a flashbang of sorts fit fluff? You're right about Ravenwing though, not sure if I want other armies to get access to our toys.

The versatility is about the gist of it. There's also the fact that I don't really think it makes sense that there would be a weapon that would be issued to only Scouts... Sniper Rifles perhaps excepted, though it might be entertaining to have Sternguard with Sniper Rifles and new profiles to allow Special Issue Ammunition to apply to both boltguns and sniper rifles.

Additionally, I too would like to see some additional grenade options- perhaps even just across the board? As an example, a flashbang style grenade would be cool, as would some sort of HH-era Phosphex-style round; I'd suggest some kind of rad-missile analogue, but don't the Ravenwing guys have something similar to that?

Majsharan wrote:Grenade launchers would be better choice for mobile tac squads than a missle launcher due to the grendade launcher being assault where the missile launcher is heavy.

a tac squad with grenade launchers and shotguns would make for an interesting cc squad.

The particular weapon I'm referencing in the OP is the "Astartes Grenade Launcher", which is different from the IG GL. Rather than being Assault 1, it's actually Rapid Fire- from 13-24" your damage output is pretty much identical, but at 0-12" the Astartes GL can double tap rather than still firing a single shot. It's also important to note that a GL of any kind would be a special weapon choice, and thus wouldn't replace the heavy weapon slot in the squad.

Of course, given that it's Scout Bikers that have the weapon, and adding it to the special weapon wargear listing would open it up to any squad that can take special weapons, then I'd say allowing Scout Squads to take either a Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, or Astartes GL would be reasonable.

Whiskey144 wrote:

Additionally, I too would like to see some additional grenade options- perhaps even just across the board? As an example, a flashbang style grenade would be cool, as would some sort of HH-era Phosphex-style round; I'd suggest some kind of rad-missile analogue, but don't the Ravenwing guys have something similar to that?

Ravenwing has 4 grenade options. The standard frag and krak, then rad (reduces toughness) and stasis (reduces WS and I).

As for phosphex, what rules would you want it to have, and isn't that stuff kind of not used anymore? As you mentioned, it was HH era, so not sure if anyone still has it.

I've used scout bikers with grenade launchers once. Nothing to write home about. They were mostly there for sabotaging a ruin