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Well Gents,
I have been out of 40k for pretty much all of 6th and 7th. I still collected the models and armies, but other gaming systems offered simplified rules and great models with low start up costs so I tried them out. I still am actively playing Bolt Action and have started to dabble in Warpath/Dead zone. I bought the 7th rulebook and the new BA codex and have read them pretty through, yet I just seem so lost. Is it worth it for me to get back into being that I loved 5th ed. so dearly? Should I sit another addition out and just proxy my 40k for Warpath? If I should does anyone have any good links that maybe explain the general of the meta now-a-days? I am especially confused about unbound/data-slate/formations/WD stuff. Thanks on advance gents...

Can't I just go back to the good ole days of Meched up SW and Rhino Rushes??? :(

If you wish to assemble some models together, spend an evening with a friend or two in an environment where you're not going to go all out to abuse some of the stuff that's out there, and where you're confident that your attitude to the game will be sufficiently similar that you'll play with a similar approach and likely agree on any in-house modifications needed to ensure you're all having fun, go for it.

Outside of those circumstances, you're probably better off elsewhere.

 Azreal13 wrote:
If you wish to assemble some models together, spend an evening with a friend or two in an environment where you're not going to go all out to abuse some of the stuff that's out there, and where you're confident that your attitude to the game will be sufficiently similar that you'll play with a similar approach and likely agree on any in-house modifications needed to ensure you're all having fun, go for it.

Outside of those circumstances, you're probably better off elsewhere.

I agree with that, and my other mini-wargame outlets have satified that itch really without much house ruling or rulebook checking. It has been a breath of fresh air. Warpath and Bolt Action, and Deadzone (not as much), have offered such more simplified ways to play a mini-wargame without over complicating. I have just felt that changes to 40k over the last two editions have tended to complicate the game, but it could be that I haven't been able to adapt or grow with the game. It seems the rules have gained weight instead of slimming down.

Opinions will differ drastically. Some like 7-th, some not.
I'd recommend to try yourself.

Stuff that's changed a lot:
- Maelstorm missions + everything scoring - basically random missions every turn ~70% of which are about field controle
- Superheavies in regular games - they're very frightening from the first glance but it's possible to deal with them most of the time. It requires unusual approach sometimes
- Allies, multiple cads, formations - you can meet an army that includes units and formations from 5+ different books
- Closest wounds allocation and true los - positioning of squads does matter now

If you're in it for a laugh, 7th is amazeballs, if you want to play competitive, maybe not the best game.
Yesterday I brought a XV109 and some XV8s to a 500 point game, and the other guy had a morkanaught and some meganobs.
We had a lot of fun, and since we weren't playing seriously, it didn't matter that most people see bringing big models to 500 point games as a "that guy" thing, 'cause we just had an awesome clash of the titans.

 MadMaverick76 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
If you wish to assemble some models together, spend an evening with a friend or two in an environment where you're not going to go all out to abuse some of the stuff that's out there, and where you're confident that your attitude to the game will be sufficiently similar that you'll play with a similar approach and likely agree on any in-house modifications needed to ensure you're all having fun, go for it.

Outside of those circumstances, you're probably better off elsewhere.

I agree with that, and my other mini-wargame outlets have satified that itch really without much house ruling or rulebook checking. It has been a breath of fresh air. Warpath and Bolt Action, and Deadzone (not as much), have offered such more simplified ways to play a mini-wargame without over complicating. I have just felt that changes to 40k over the last two editions have tended to complicate the game, but it could be that I haven't been able to adapt or grow with the game. It seems the rules have gained weight instead of slimming down.

As mentioned, it depends on your group. The group I play with, and in other side games, we've had no problem with the rules, and no need to constantly check for stuff. We also don't play competitively, bring models we like, and no one that I can tell abuses the game (spam, OTT combos or allies, etc.). I'm the worst with catching up to the edition metas, and I've been doing very well overall with BA and Dark Eldar (straight, no allies). If you have the right people, with the right attitude, its a blast in my opinion.

 Azreal13 wrote:
If you wish to assemble some models together, spend an evening with a friend or two in an environment where you're not going to go all out to abuse some of the stuff that's out there, and where you're confident that your attitude to the game will be sufficiently similar that you'll play with a similar approach and likely agree on any in-house modifications needed to ensure you're all having fun, go for it.

Outside of those circumstances, you're probably better off elsewhere.

Pretty much this.

It should be noted that since you enjoyed 5th, and currently enjoy Bolt Action and Warpath, you'll find the game has taken a bit of a departure from that style of game. The current 40k eschews structure for 'narrative' rules. Some people enjoy it, some don't, but I have a feeling that if you enjoyed 5th and now enjoy BA, you'll likely feel lukewarm at best towards current 40k.

But as Az said, its totally fine with the right people and attitudes (and lists) to enjoy a pint with and shoot the gak while pushing pretty models around a table going pew-pew.

7th is a solid edition and very fun to play edition.

 MadMaverick76 wrote:

Can't I just go back to the good ole days of Meched up SW and Rhino Rushes??? :(

Yes.

The new Army building is less complicated than it sounds. The Force Org Chart in the main rule book is a formation/detachment. Follow it and you get Objective secured for your troops and the ability to re-roll your warlord trait at the beggining of game. The Force Org chart is not the only Formation/Detachment, however. There are new Formations/detachments in each codex, and rule supplement. If your army is entirely made up of units in detachments/formations your army is battleforged. If your army contains units that are not part of formations/detachments, your army is unbound. Unbond armies are free to choose units as they choose, but sacrifice any bonuses that detachments/formations grant.

Victory Conditions - Killing the most stuff isn't usually the most important thing any longer. Controlling objectives, Slaying the Warlord, getting First Blood, and making it into the enemies deployment zone will score you victory points, where wiping out enemy units, beyond the first/warlord generally does not.

The game has flyers now. Flyers are a pain to shoot without flyers of your own, or skyfire(anti-air) weapons. Not usually a problem unless you happen to go up against someone who spams them. They were a bigger deal in 6th, nt so much now.

Super Heavies exist, and you can play them. Still more of an Apocalypse thing, but technically you get them into regular games. The Ork ones aren't good, the IG ones are giant tanks, Imperial Knights are okay.

Imperial Knights - You'll gak bricks the first time you see your opponent field nothing but Knight Titans. About 400 points each, and worth thier points. If you're prepared to crack open tanks, you can crack open Knight titans. They are actually more dangerous in Assault than assault than anything else. Mostly kept in check with the fact they only be soo many places at once, or only stomp on soo much per turn. In 7th, where objectives and mission goals matter more than wiping units they can be at a disadvantage. a 30 point unit of Gretchin that have Objective secured can take control of an objective away from a 375point Knight Titan.

If you're planning on coming back to 40k Rhino rushes have been neutered by hull points; Rhinos are much more fragile today than they were in 5e. Drop Pods, Deep Strike, Jump Packs, and the Stormraven are much, much more reliable tools for getting BA up close than Rhinos.

As to the general state of the game it's slowly pulling itself into some semblance of order but GW keeps adding new stuff too quickly for their rules to hold together; the tactical wheel has gotten armoured MCs and Flyers added in and Skimmers are no longer something you can easily fight with normal anti-tank weapons so the game's gone all the way towards skew lists as the norm. It's very dependent on having a decent group of people to play with, much harder today to find a decent pick-up game than it's ever been.

Rhinos are a 35 point shield that carries your marines across the board and then blows up. As long as you are fine with that, Rhinos are pretty good at what they do.

 MadMaverick76 wrote:


Can't I just go back to the good ole days of Meched up SW and Rhino Rushes??? :(

you can, the thing about 7th is.... you don't HAVE to. 7th edition opens up choices in the form of formations, detachments etc. a standard FOC with tac squads in rhinos etc is perfectly valid. HOWEVER at the same time, if you wanna do a first company style army, totally doable etc. 7th edition is very very much centered around choice. if you're looking to play "chess with dice" 40k isn't the game for you right now. if you want to sit down with a friend, drink a beer, laugh and basicly have some fun fights while basicly telling a story? it's great. it's all about the additude you take to the game.

TLDR: if you're a garage beer and pretzels player, come on back 40ks never been better. if you're a compeititve tourny player? there are LOTS of better games out there

You know, I keep seeing the "if you're a tourney player there are many better games..." and its usually people referencing Warmahordes.

A friend of mine just moments ago came in second as a Templecon Masters for Warmahordes, and guess what...? The finals were two of the generic net-lists which have been winning events for a year+ now.

That game is just as victim to power-gamer, "broken" lists, which throw skill out of the window.

So ultimately, all things being equal, I always suggest going with whatever makes you happier/is more fun. Ultimately this is our hobby time, and as long as you are enjoying it, you've found the "right" game.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
You know, I keep seeing the "if you're a tourney player there are many better games..." and its usually people referencing Warmahordes.

A friend of mine just moments ago came in second as a Templecon Masters for Warmahordes, and guess what...? The finals were two of the generic net-lists which have been winning events for a year+ now.

That game is just as victim to power-gamer, "broken" lists, which throw skill out of the window.

So ultimately, all things being equal, I always suggest going with whatever makes you happier/is more fun. Ultimately this is our hobby time, and as long as you are enjoying it, you've found the "right" game.

Wait, so your example of two net lists proves that Warmahordes is just as "broken" as 40k? Me thinks you assume too much.

Don't get me wrong, we're both in agreement that you should play what you enjoy the most. But this sounds like game preference blocking out objectivity of a game's particular characteristics.

I think his point is, certain types of players ruin the game. Certain approaches to the hobby are not compatible to others.

That's not really what I got from his post:

That game is just as victim to power-gamer, "broken" lists, which throw skill out of the window.

I do not think WM/H is anywhere near as open to abuse as 40k is. Now, if you're not looking for a competitive, tourney-minded game then by all means, play 40k, I certainly don't have anything against that. But I think saying the two games are similar in terms of power-gaming, when one game is significantly play-tested and has yet to have much in the way of re-writing of rules (either core or unit-specific), and the other has gone through 7 core editions and countless army books while still being open to abuse, I think that's an unsupportable statement.

The problem I have with Warmahordes is it's like a CCG that none of the cards are rare. You can just buy the winningest net list and play it.

MadMaverick76 wrote:I agree with that, and my other mini-wargame outlets have satified that itch really without much house ruling or rulebook checking. It has been a breath of fresh air. Warpath and Bolt Action, and Deadzone (not as much), have offered such more simplified ways to play a mini-wargame without over complicating. I have just felt that changes to 40k over the last two editions have tended to complicate the game, but it could be that I haven't been able to adapt or grow with the game. It seems the rules have gained weight instead of slimming down.

Right. What it sounds like you're looking for is a lightweight skirmish game, like the other ones you're already playing. You can do 40k this way, but it's not the default way if you just show up to a store looking for a pick up game. You can play kill team, and 500 point 40k games, but if you're looking to replicate the days of 5th edition, then you don't really have a choice other than finding a group of people interested in playing 5th edition. The game has changed rather a lot since then.

The game now is much more about picking whatever miniatures you like, getting a hold of the rules to play them by one means or another, and then throwing them on the table to play out a scenario. The game has become purposely too unwieldy to just line them up and knock them down like you did in days of yore. Thankfully, that unwieldiness has come with a lot of depth, so if what you want is a game to run scenarios, it works probably better than at any time since 2nd ed.

But the game is a little bit like D&D 3.5 these days: lots, and lots and LOTS of options scattered around dozens of books. If you don't want to put that much thought into it before you even see the tabletop, then 40k is still a pass for you for now.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If you're planning on coming back to 40k Rhino rushes have been neutered by hull points; Rhinos are much more fragile today than they were in 5e. Drop Pods, Deep Strike, Jump Packs, and the Stormraven are much, much more reliable tools for getting BA up close than Rhinos.

As to the general state of the game it's slowly pulling itself into some semblance of order but GW keeps adding new stuff too quickly for their rules to hold together; the tactical wheel has gotten armoured MCs and Flyers added in and Skimmers are no longer something you can easily fight with normal anti-tank weapons so the game's gone all the way towards skew lists as the norm. It's very dependent on having a decent group of people to play with, much harder today to find a decent pick-up game than it's ever been.

To be entirely fair, the rhino is WAY more survivable in 7th than in 6th. With only ap2 or better getting an explodes result, I've been fielding rhinos quite often since the edition change.

 adamsouza wrote:
The problem I have with Warmahordes is it's like a CCG that none of the cards are rare. You can just buy the winningest net list and play it.

Unless I'm mistaken (haven't kept up with WM/H tourneys as much lately), I haven't seen a lot of net-lists dominating the scene. Even if you buy a net-list, you still have to understand the nuances of the army and utilize a lot of cross-unit synergy that I don't think really exists in 40k outside of psychic abilities and USR-donations by ICs (which just becomes a permanent fixture of that unit throughout the game until the IC bites the dust). I think the choices a given unit has tend to be much greater.

With 40k, you can buy net-lists too, the major difference is with the way the game shifts with new releases (heck, with the new Necron book there are even now more ways to build an army), it becomes expensive for you to follow that path, in which case it's a game of "may those with the biggest wallets prevail." I don't really think the constant flux is a better system, 40k is already very expensive and forcing this DOTA-style game shift gives people a feeling of "pay up or get out."

Of course, that's for those with a competitive mindset. If you're just playing for the lolz with some friends, then it's entirely different.

 Ailaros wrote:
But the game is a little bit like D&D 3.5 these days: lots, and lots and LOTS of options scattered around dozens of books. If you don't want to put that much thought into it before you even see the tabletop, then 40k is still a pass for you for now.

I think this is a pretty good way to put it.

Well Gents,
You have all given me a lot to mull over. I am going to start with playing a few 500 point games in the comfort of my own home with some of my buddies. I think this will get me familiar with the game. I will probably stick to the old FOC for now until I get more comfortable. Anything I should be aware of that is glaringly different from 7th? Specifically stuff I may encounter at this small point level? Will probably do some IG vs SM and some SM/BA vs Orks to get comfortable.

 MadMaverick76 wrote:
Well Gents,
You have all given me a lot to mull over. I am going to start with playing a few 500 point games in the comfort of my own home with some of my buddies. I think this will get me familiar with the game. I will probably stick to the old FOC for now until I get more comfortable. Anything I should be aware of that is glaringly different from 7th? Specifically stuff I may encounter at this small point level? Will probably do some IG vs SM and some SM/BA vs Orks to get comfortable.

biggest change is gonna be psykic powers if you run a Librarian

BrianDavion wrote:

 MadMaverick76 wrote:
Well Gents,
You have all given me a lot to mull over. I am going to start with playing a few 500 point games in the comfort of my own home with some of my buddies. I think this will get me familiar with the game. I will probably stick to the old FOC for now until I get more comfortable. Anything I should be aware of that is glaringly different from 7th? Specifically stuff I may encounter at this small point level? Will probably do some IG vs SM and some SM/BA vs Orks to get comfortable.

biggest change is gonna be psykic powers if you run a Librarian

That is probably something I am going to leave off the table until I feel more comfortable with the warp charge rules and denying and blocking powers.

MadMaverick76 wrote:Anything I should be aware of that is glaringly different from 7th?

Well, there are a bunch of big things, like the new psychic phase, hull points, and fliers, but there are a bunch of little things you'll run into all the time. Like you can now fire overwatch before someone charges you, for example. Or how frag grenades are only S3, which means you can't use them against vehicles anymore. Or how there are different kinds of power weapons. There's been a lot of change in detail.

There have also been a few things that seem small, but because they're core rules changes, they have a big impact. For example, wound allocation is now such a way where you have to remove the closest model, instead of player's choice. This means that if you were relying on hidden weapons, you can't rely on them anymore, and horde armies took a huge nerf, because it's now easy for your opponent to kill more inches of models than they can move forward in a single turn. They also got rid of by-unit cover saves, and by-unit movement restrictions. And they made it basically impossible for you to get into close combat with a unit that even knows what a transport is, much less made the mistake of starting the game in one.

There has been a lot that's changed. Your best bet is going to be to play a few games with someone new. Someone you need to explain the rules to, so that you can very slowly, very carefully go through said rules and see what's changed. Just pretend like you don't know how the game works for a little while.

 Ailaros wrote:

MadMaverick76 wrote:Anything I should be aware of that is glaringly different from 7th?

Well, there are a bunch of big things, like the new psychic phase, hull points, and fliers, but there are a bunch of little things you'll run into all the time. Like you can now fire overwatch before someone charges you, for example. Or how frag grenades are only S3, which means you can't use them against vehicles anymore. Or how there are different kinds of power weapons. There's been a lot of change in detail.

There have also been a few things that seem small, but because they're core rules changes, they have a big impact. For example, wound allocation is now such a way where you have to remove the closest model, instead of player's choice. This means that if you were relying on hidden weapons, you can't rely on them anymore, and horde armies took a huge nerf, because it's now easy for your opponent to kill more inches of models than they can move forward in a single turn. They also got rid of by-unit cover saves, and by-unit movement restrictions. And they made it basically impossible for you to get into close combat with a unit that even knows what a transport is, much less made the mistake of starting the game in one.

There has been a lot that's changed. Your best bet is going to be to play a few games with someone new. Someone you need to explain the rules to, so that you can very slowly, very carefully go through said rules and see what's changed. Just pretend like you don't know how the game works for a little while.

Ailaros,
I miss your bat-reps, definitely the highlights of 5th edition for me. I am going to follow your advice and just start basic. Tonight going to be doing some HQ and 2x troops before expanding. I do tend to like some of the changes, specifically the model by model rules.

 adamsouza wrote:
The problem I have with Warmahordes is it's like a CCG that none of the cards are rare. You can just buy the winningest net list and play it.

Not true. Netlists don't get you far in WMH. Many tournament winners use lists that people aren't prepared for.
And to say it's 'as bad' as 40k is categorically not true.