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Hey guys. So, if you haven't noticed, a lot of rules and effects in 7th edition books are changing and/or revolving around Leadership tests and Fear tests. Dark Eldar wargear, Necron Wargear, more models getting Fear, ext. Some things are being simplified to be the Fear special rule, even though it doesn't fit the fluff at all (Yeah, I'm looking at you, MSS). Then you have the armies that don't care. Daemons, most CSM, Dark Eldar late game, half of Eldar, and ANY Space Marine faction.

Now, I don't personally think GW would throw around a useless rule and put it on a good number of things, just so most of the game can ignore it. Or, at least I'd like to think that. They must have a plan in store. So, I'm assuming, or hoping, rather, that And They Shall Know No Fear will change at some point, probably in 8th edition (whenever that is).

I thought a good counter (and is arguably stronger against more things) is that units with ATSKNF not only get the sweeping and regroup benefits they already do, but then also reroll failed Morale, Pinning, and Fear checks by default. Now, thats directly better against Morale and Pinning, sure. But it makes sense, doesn't it? And then, they hardly ever falter at a gruesome sight, but some effects that aren't even technically being afraid, would actually, suddenly, matter! Like, why does a Space Marine ignore nano scarabs that burrow into his brain? He just says "No" because? Makes no sense to me, and I feel there is a greater plan in the works.

What do you guys think? What do you think will happen with the special rule? What would you LIKE to change about it, and what are your ideas?

I've tried to keep my disdain for Space Marines low in this post, but can we please not have Space Marine players just be like "I don't wanna be nerfed, hardy har, space marines need a buff", ext. This is a discussion about a rule that, in my opinion, needs to change for the better of the game.

Sure. Or just get rid of ATSKNF.

Martel732 wrote:
Sure. Or just get rid of ATSKNF.

Well, no. Thats too big of a nerf, and as much as I hate Space Marines, I wouldn't want that to happen. I'm just concerned with literally anything Fear based being ignored.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sure. Or just get rid of ATSKNF.

Well, no. Thats too big of a nerf, and as much as I hate Space Marines, I wouldn't want that to happen. I'm just concerned with literally anything Fear based being ignored.

Is it a nerf? I rarely invoke this rule, myself. ATSKNF doesn't stop being shot dead by high STR shooting, so I kind of don't see the value in it. If I do run into enemy assault elements, I WANT my tac squads swept in combat.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Hey guys. So, if you haven't noticed, a lot of rules and effects in 7th edition books are changing and/or revolving around Leadership tests and Fear tests. Dark Eldar wargear, Necron Wargear, more models getting Fear, ext. Some things are being simplified to be the Fear special rule, even though it doesn't fit the fluff at all (Yeah, I'm looking at you, MSS). Then you have the armies that don't care. Daemons, most CSM, Dark Eldar late game, half of Eldar, and ANY Space Marine faction.

Now, I don't personally think GW would throw around a useless rule and put it on a good number of things, just so most of the game can ignore it. Or, at least I'd like to think that. They must have a plan in store. So, I'm assuming, or hoping, rather, that And They Shall Know No Fear will change at some point, probably in 8th edition (whenever that is).

I thought a good counter (and is arguably stronger against more things) is that units with ATSKNF not only get the sweeping and regroup benefits they already do, but then also reroll failed Morale, Pinning, and Fear checks by default. Now, thats directly better against Morale and Pinning, sure. But it makes sense, doesn't it? And then, they hardly ever falter at a gruesome sight, but some effects that aren't even technically being afraid, would actually, suddenly, matter! Like, why does a Space Marine ignore nano scarabs that burrow into his brain? He just says "No" because? Makes no sense to me, and I feel there is a greater plan in the works.

What do you guys think? What do you think will happen with the special rule? What would you LIKE to change about it, and what are your ideas?

I've tried to keep my disdain for Space Marines low in this post, but can we please not have Space Marine players just be like "I don't wanna be nerfed, hardy har, space marines need a buff", ext. This is a discussion about a rule that, in my opinion, needs to change for the better of the game.

I actually like ATSKNF. Basically being immune to all negative leadership consequences is something that would be sorely missed if it were to simply be removed from the game. Seriously, the only thing it doesn't make you immune to is perils of the warp!(Don't even think it GW
Your idea does balance ATSKNF more, and I would be fine with playing with your proposed rules.

ATSKNF is cool and fluffy, my gripe with it is the amount of rules that specifically state they don't effect ATSKNF.

Some Dark Eldar weapons for example have a cool rule called soulfright. Take a leadership test, loose the amount of wounds you fail by. Now that's pretty good! but oh wait doesn't work on ATSKNF, it's actually pretty rubbish.

Things like that are what make it a problem.

Taffy17 wrote:
ATSKNF is cool and fluffy, my gripe with it is the amount of rules that specifically state they don't effect ATSKNF.

Some Dark Eldar weapons for example have a cool rule called soulfright. Take a leadership test, loose the amount of wounds you fail by. Now that's pretty good! but oh wait doesn't work on ATSKNF, it's actually pretty rubbish.

Things like that are what make it a problem.

Necrons have some of that as well. Thats not necessarily too bad, but everything gaining fear for free, but almost nothing worth using it on, is rather demoralizing.

I'd support giving ATSKNF some lesser effect on failing a Fear test as opposed to just running away. Fight at WS/BS1, something like that.

As I said, just give the Xenos what they want and get rid of it. It's not likely to make the difference they think. Grav cents are still going to own face, and tac squads are still going to be worthless.

Taffy17 wrote:
ATSKNF is cool and fluffy, my gripe with it is the amount of rules that specifically state they don't effect ATSKNF.

Some Dark Eldar weapons for example have a cool rule called soulfright. Take a leadership test, loose the amount of wounds you fail by. Now that's pretty good! but oh wait doesn't work on ATSKNF, it's actually pretty rubbish.

Things like that are what make it a problem.

Why wouldn't that work? ATSKNF automatically passes fear and regroup tests, and has the rules for sweeping advances. Nowhere does it say that they can't take a leadership test. Even fearless doesn't say that they automatically pass all leadership checks, it only says what tests they automatically pass (pinning, fear, morale, and regroup).

So yes, if something calls for a leadership test, the rule has no impact on it whatsoever. Fear is a leadership check, but ATSKNF only applies to fear, not to all leadership.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's why Perils calls for a leadership check, because there is no rule in the game that ignores all leadership tests (as far as I'm aware).

Soulfright specifically says that models with Fearless or ATSKNF aren't effected.

It literally says it doesn't work on units containing a model with ATSKNF.

I personally don't like the way ATSKNF works. And as a chaos player why do my marines suddenly lose it, something programed into thier minds and genetics iirc, when they go rouge? But more importantly, why give so many things fear and fear-like abailities when half the armies out there ignore it?

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I personally don't like the way ATSKNF works. And as a chaos player why do my marines suddenly lose it, something programed into thier minds and genetics iirc, when they go rouge? But more importantly, why give so many things fear and fear-like abailities when half the armies out there ignore it?

To beat Tau of course!

We're gonna need a little more than fear for that, me thinks!

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Soulfright specifically says that models with Fearless or ATSKNF aren't effected.

Wow, that IS garbage then.

As is, marines at ld8 fail ld tests 28% of the time. With a re roll they would only fail 8% of the time (that's better than ld10).

The best solution is to remove ATSKNF and push marines to ld9. With a 17% failure rate, they're appropriately brave but no longer immune to fear, sweeping advance, etc.

Fearless should ignore Fear.
ATSKNF should just give a reroll to Fear tests.

ATSKNF is the dumbest rule in 40k. All it does is remove interesting elements from the game, and adds nothing.
30k is in large part a much more entertaining ruleset because ATSKNF and fearless are pretty much non-existent. Suddenly the moral and leadership aspect of the game actually matters! Stubborn is a good rule! Standards and other wargear to rally your troops become invaluable assets!

 McGibs wrote:
ATSKNF is the dumbest rule in 40k. All it does is remove interesting elements from the game, and adds nothing.
30k is in large part a much more entertaining ruleset because ATSKNF and fearless are pretty much non-existent. Suddenly the moral and leadership aspect of the game actually matters! Stubborn is a good rule! Standards and other wargear to rally your troops become invaluable assets!

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Rerolling Fear tests would make a lot of sense, but would allow Fear effects that fluff wise don't even cause fear to actually have a chance at working.

 McGibs wrote:
ATSKNF is the dumbest rule in 40k. All it does is remove interesting elements from the game, and adds nothing.
30k is in large part a much more entertaining ruleset because ATSKNF and fearless are pretty much non-existent. Suddenly the moral and leadership aspect of the game actually matters! Stubborn is a good rule! Standards and other wargear to rally your troops become invaluable assets!

ATSKNF is far from the dumbest rule. It's certainly the most overrated one, though.

I would take the atsknf buff you proposed in the op.

I miss old combat tactics. I used it way more than I used chapter tactics. Of course, playing a cent star, not much to use my UM doctrines on... (Or if there is, it's situational, like getting an assault for smashface, or a better shot at removing flyers.)