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Hello all!

I am new to the Dakka dakka forums for this ONE THING, only because in the last thread that was recently closed down because of this discussion...

I am not trying to re-open an old thread as what I have is new information on this insight and want to know what people think about it-- I'll also be sending an email to Frontlinegaming about it as well to see what their call is as they have changed rules in the past (such as a Tyrannocyte not being able to shoot 360, ect ect)

So here's the old conondrum: Can you take more than one Spyder in a Canoptek Harvest?

The formation requirements say here:

1 Canoptek Spyder
1 unit of Wraiths
1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs

So people say it sounds pretty self expanatory, and it does! I believed in until I watched this man's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiVNNrXRQUc


at 8:29 does anyone notice something interesting? This poster is of a full Reclamation legion with every formation on it with the max number of models you can take in each specific formation....

And for the Canoptek Harvest there are 3 Spyders.....

Now I know the rule says 1 Canoptek spyder-- but after seeing this poster it has gotten me to thinking....

Becuase the Spyder's unit composition is listed as 1 Canoptek Spyder, I feel that is the first reason why the formation has that particular wording, now onto reason number 2...

This one Spyder you start with in the formation is the only Spyder in the formation that can give out the three special rules to every other unit. I feel that even though you can technically take more Spyders in this formation (If the poster is in fact correct, because why would every other formation and model count be right except that one?) it is worded the way it is because just that Spyder gives those rules.

So if I took 2 Spyders, and the one that wasn't the "special" one died, I'd still have the ability to give out special rules so long as that specific Spyder was alive.

Please don't attack me, I just wanted to bring this GW special edition Poster to light with a full Reclamation Legion on it that has 3 Spyders listed under the Canoptek Harvest Formation....

I really hope that this clears up this whole Spyder business, and I hope to take at least 2 Spyders in tournaments that allow them!

HKTT

Canoptek Harvest Formation wrote:FORMATION:
1 Canoptek Spyder
1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths
1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs

Note the underlined. In the case of Wraiths and Scarabs you take a unit, as per the unit entry in the Codex.

For the Spyder you take one, a single Spyder, not a unit of them. The video was wrong I'm a afraid.

As pointed out in the previous thread when that poster was brought up:

The number of units don't add up correctly. Too many scarabs for it to be a single formation as detailed in the data slate or even 2 formations and then if we're three then there are not enough wraiths to fill three so the pic really doesn't help at all.

From what I can see of the poster, there are 2 blocks of 3 wraiths, there's a line going from a block of 3 to a SINGLE Spyder, continuing down to a block of scarabs. P

Follow the lines..

Pretty much what the other two have said.

Artwork =/= rules

Nice try, colonel. *salutes*

Yeah, the Codex says pretty much the same thing, but a Picture is not rules until they FaQ it (soon i would guess):

From the codex it's very clear especially when you look at the Destroyer formation (can't remember name) because it refers the the Heavy Destroyer composition as "1 unit of Heavy Destroyers". This is important because a Heavy Destroyer unit also starts as a single model unit then adds more to it exactly like a Spyder unit.

This means that they aren't referring to the Spyder composition as "A Spyder" because it starts as a single model unit and that if they wanted you to take extra Spyders then then would of written "A unit of Spyders" like they did for Heavy Destroyers.

It would be very cut and dry except for the two non-rules sources (a promotional poster and White Draw) that show it as "A unit of Spyders". (Or you're col_impact and you think "A Spyder" actually means you can take 3 Spyders)

That picture just says Canoptek Swarm, the actual name of the formation is Canoptek Harvest, so I don't know why people who say that indidicates the Harvest can have a unit of Spyders.

Hollismason wrote:
That picture just says Canoptek Swarm, the actual name of the formation is Canoptek Harvest, so I don't know why people who say that indidicates the Harvest can have a unit of Spyders.

Because that is all it can refer to? Or does a Formation named Canoptek Swarm exists?

Keep in mind that per Formation rules the Canoptek Harvest can only refer to 1 unit of Canoptek Spyders (Formations are defined as dealing with units and Army Entry Lists and not models). Even though it says "1 Canoptek Spyder" the rules require it to say "1 unit of Canoptek Spyders composed of 1 Canoptek Spyder"

Keep in mind that in the hard copy of the Necron codex, the Canoptek Harvest refers directly to page 93 which can only refer to Army Entry List for Canoptek Spyders which has a unit composition of 1 Canoptek Spyder and an "Options" panel which explicitly allows you to add additional Spyders.

Also, keep in mind the Formation prominently displays the text "Restrictions: None" so any claim of restricting the number of Spyders in the formation to just 1 Spyder (meaning you are restricted from using the options in the Spyder Army Entry List) goes directly against RAW.

col_impact wrote:
Keep in mind that per Formation rules the Canoptek Harvest can only refer to 1 unit of Canoptek Spyders (Formations are defined as dealing with units and Army Entry Lists and not models). Even though it says "1 Canoptek Spyder" the rules require it to say "1 unit of Canoptek Spyders composed of 1 Canoptek Spyder"

Keep in mind that in the hard copy of the Necron codex, the Canoptek Harvest refers directly to page 93 which can only refer to Army Entry List for Canoptek Spyders which has a unit composition of 1 Canoptek Spyder and an "Options" panel which explicitly allows you to add additional Spyders.

Also, keep in mind the Formation prominently displays the text "Restrictions: None" so any claim of restricting the number of Spyders in the formation to just 1 Spyder (meaning you are restricted from using the options in the Spyder Army Entry List) goes directly against RAW.

Advanced versus Basic. The Advanced rule indicating that the specific Formation "Canoptek Harvest" contain only 1 Spyder overrides the more Basic rules covering ALL Formations.

You have no permission to take a Unit of Spyders. You have permission to take 1 Spyder.

Add all the circumstantial evidence you want to support your position, but until you can demonstrate that 1 means 2 or 3, you can't take more than 1. The rules as written are against you in this instance.

Is this poorly written? Yes. GW is good with models, but terrible at writing rules. It's almost laughable. They should have written "1 Unit of Canoptek Spyders, consisting of 1 Spyder only" and things would be clearer.

col_impact wrote:
Keep in mind that in the hard copy of the Necron codex, the Canoptek Harvest refers directly to page 93 which can only refer to Army Entry List for Canoptek Spyders which has a unit composition of 1 Canoptek Spyder and an "Options" panel which explicitly allows you to add additional Spyders.

Also, keep in mind the Formation prominently displays the text "Restrictions: None" so any claim of restricting the number of Spyders in the formation to just 1 Spyder (meaning you are restricted from using the options in the Spyder Army Entry List) goes directly against RAW.

You've asserted that no restrictions means anything goes.
Please explain why I can't add a Ghost Ark to that formation.

This debate has happened before.

Mod please lock

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Keep in mind that in the hard copy of the Necron codex, the Canoptek Harvest refers directly to page 93 which can only refer to Army Entry List for Canoptek Spyders which has a unit composition of 1 Canoptek Spyder and an "Options" panel which explicitly allows you to add additional Spyders.

Also, keep in mind the Formation prominently displays the text "Restrictions: None" so any claim of restricting the number of Spyders in the formation to just 1 Spyder (meaning you are restricted from using the options in the Spyder Army Entry List) goes directly against RAW.

You've asserted that no restrictions means anything goes.
Please explain why I can't add a Ghost Ark to that formation.

Is there a Ghost Ark on the Army Entry List for Canoptek Spyders that the Canoptek Harvest directly references (i.e. "page 93")?

What is there on that Army Entry List is the Option to add additional spyders.

If I am restricted from taking that option, then why does the Canoptek Harvest say "Restrictions: None"? RAW there is no restriction on that option.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Keep in mind that per Formation rules the Canoptek Harvest can only refer to 1 unit of Canoptek Spyders (Formations are defined as dealing with units and Army Entry Lists and not models). Even though it says "1 Canoptek Spyder" the rules require it to say "1 unit of Canoptek Spyders composed of 1 Canoptek Spyder"

Keep in mind that in the hard copy of the Necron codex, the Canoptek Harvest refers directly to page 93 which can only refer to Army Entry List for Canoptek Spyders which has a unit composition of 1 Canoptek Spyder and an "Options" panel which explicitly allows you to add additional Spyders.

Also, keep in mind the Formation prominently displays the text "Restrictions: None" so any claim of restricting the number of Spyders in the formation to just 1 Spyder (meaning you are restricted from using the options in the Spyder Army Entry List) goes directly against RAW.

Advanced versus Basic. The Advanced rule indicating that the specific Formation "Canoptek Harvest" contain only 1 Spyder overrides the more Basic rules covering ALL Formations.

You have no permission to take a Unit of Spyders. You have permission to take 1 Spyder.

Add all the circumstantial evidence you want to support your position, but until you can demonstrate that 1 means 2 or 3, you can't take more than 1. The rules as written are against you in this instance.

Is this poorly written? Yes. GW is good with models, but terrible at writing rules. It's almost laughable. They should have written "1 Unit of Canoptek Spyders, consisting of 1 Spyder only" and things would be clearer.

We know seperably that the Canoptek Harvest refers to the Army Entry List because it points directly at it ("page 93") in the hard copy of the codex.

Basic Versus Advanced does not apply here because the unit composition for a unit of spyders is "1 Canoptek Spyder". Since we have separate confirmation that the Army Entry List is to be used and the Formation rules require units and Army Entry List and Formations have separate permission to go out and find complete Army Entry Lists across numerous sources, we can only conclude that 1 Canoptek Spyder is shorthand for 1 unit of 1 Canoptek Spyder. What is actually missing is any actual assertion at all that we are required to use the model in place of the unit. Does anyone see the word "model" explicitly used? If it said "1 Canoptek Spyder model" then there would indeed be an argument. Since Formations always use units and there is no assertion to use directly instead the actual model then why are you jumping to that conclusion that has no basis in any rule?

This is just a blatant try to get this started again, this has been discussed i think 20 laps in the other thread and it's the same points over and over again.

let me: it says one spyder, done.

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Keep in mind that in the hard copy of the Necron codex, the Canoptek Harvest refers directly to page 93 which can only refer to Army Entry List for Canoptek Spyders which has a unit composition of 1 Canoptek Spyder and an "Options" panel which explicitly allows you to add additional Spyders.

Also, keep in mind the Formation prominently displays the text "Restrictions: None" so any claim of restricting the number of Spyders in the formation to just 1 Spyder (meaning you are restricted from using the options in the Spyder Army Entry List) goes directly against RAW.

You've asserted that no restrictions means anything goes.
Please explain why I can't add a Ghost Ark to that formation.

Is there a Ghost Ark on the Army Entry List for Canoptek Spyders that the Canoptek Harvest directly references (i.e. "page 93")?

What is there on that Army Entry List is the Option to add additional spyders.

If I am restricted from taking that option, then why does the Canoptek Harvest say "Restrictions: None"? RAW there is no restriction on that option.

The formation list does not include more than one spider. The formation list is what's restricting you - a restriction you continue to ignore.
Just like I can't add a Ghost Ark to the formation, you can't add more than one spider to the formation.

. Since Formations always use units and there is no assertion to use directly instead the actual model then why are you jumping to that conclusion that has no basis in any rule?

They don't always use units. At best it's implied.

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Keep in mind that in the hard copy of the Necron codex, the Canoptek Harvest refers directly to page 93 which can only refer to Army Entry List for Canoptek Spyders which has a unit composition of 1 Canoptek Spyder and an "Options" panel which explicitly allows you to add additional Spyders.

Also, keep in mind the Formation prominently displays the text "Restrictions: None" so any claim of restricting the number of Spyders in the formation to just 1 Spyder (meaning you are restricted from using the options in the Spyder Army Entry List) goes directly against RAW.

You've asserted that no restrictions means anything goes.
Please explain why I can't add a Ghost Ark to that formation.

Is there a Ghost Ark on the Army Entry List for Canoptek Spyders that the Canoptek Harvest directly references (i.e. "page 93")?

What is there on that Army Entry List is the Option to add additional spyders.

If I am restricted from taking that option, then why does the Canoptek Harvest say "Restrictions: None"? RAW there is no restriction on that option.

The formation list does not include more than one spider. The formation list is what's restricting you - a restriction you continue to ignore.
Just like I can't add a Ghost Ark to the formation, you can't add more than one spider to the formation.

. Since Formations always use units and there is no assertion to use directly instead the actual model then why are you jumping to that conclusion that has no basis in any rule?

They don't always use units. At best it's implied.

Your argument about the GA is an obtuse one.
The Reclamation formation does not say 0-1 Ghost Arks on it so how can we add a GA to the unit of warriors?
What does "Restrictions: None" even mean then? It's a line in the rules and you are saying we ignore what it says because it offends you?
The line can only mean that the units of the formation have unrestricted access to the options on their army entry list.
And as stated, since GA is not on the Canoptek Spyders Army Entry List it can obviously not be taken. Additional spyder however is an option on that Army Entry List and the no restrictions means we can take it.


1 Canoptek Spyder is technically nonspecific as to whether it refers to unit or model
Formations specify that they refer to units and complete army entry lists.

How are you logically able to even assert that you are taking a Canoptek Spyder model?

col_impact wrote:
1 Canoptek Spyder is technically nonspecific as to whether it refers to unit or model

Not when they use '1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths' and '1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs' in the very same Formation.

 Ghaz wrote:

col_impact wrote:
1 Canoptek Spyder is technically nonspecific as to whether it refers to unit or model

Not when they use '1 unit of Canoptek Wraiths' and '1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs' in the very same Formation.

You cannot prove they mean 'model' any more than I can prove they mean 'unit' in the context of just that line.

However, the Formation rules specify units and army entry list so I have RAW support for my argument while you don't.

Feel free to prove they mean "model." The Formation rules assert they mean 'unit' and you are not overriding that unequivocal rule statement with any rule.

As mentioned earlier this has already been done to death.

With no new information there's no point in going over it again.