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Hey, im looking for a rules set for 15mm romans, and i was wondering which ones best andmost popular?

Best and most popular are going to be two very different things.

And:

Which Romans?

Romans start with Tullian/Servian Romans in around 700BC, then there are Camillan Romans from around 540 - 300BC, then there are Polybian Romans from around 300-110BC, and then Marian Romans from 110-20BC, and then Early Imperial Romans from 20BC - 180AD, and then Middle Imperial from 180 - 250/300 AD, and then Late Imperial Romans from 250/300 - 450AD... After that you have Byzantines and the Western Romans disappear.

As for rules sets for 15mm

First, the "most popular" are DBMM and Field of Glory (FoG).

DBMM is dense, difficult to understand, has few diagrams or examples, and has a great deal of "gamey-ness." It is primarily a competition set of rules.

FoG is better written, and easier and faster to play, yet it has some issues, I understand (what, I don't know, because I can't really follow the arguments very well, and they seem to be based upon largely subjective interpretation of ancient authors).

But FoG is a much funnier game than is DBMM.

DBA, which is DBMM's older brother (although lacking in detail, and with MUCH SMALLER armies - armies are just 12 elements, with little to no variation or options), is also very popular. But if your army is based to play DBMM or FoG. Then you can play DBA.

REGARDLESS of which system you eventually choose for 15mm, you should get DBA to start with it, to teach you the basics of movement and terrain, which tends to be similar across rules systems.

As far as the "best" especially for ANY of the Roman Armies, is a system called Hoplon. It is not popular (even though it is very similar to all of the above), but those few who play it (after breaking down and agreeing to try it) have never gone back to other rules.

It is based upon DBA/DBMM, but it, like FoG, uses Units, and has a real Morale System, which DBA/MM lacks.

It also has variable quality generals, and special rules for several different historical troop types (Such as Roman Legions). It also has slightly more detail in the troop types, allowing optional characteristics such as Untrained Troops (even though they might be of very high, or low, morale, they simply have not had adequate training at fighting or drill) or Professional troops (who are crack professionals who can devastate lesser troops when used properly). And there are variations in armor quality, which affects troop's vulnerability to missiles (optional rules also have armor affect melee).

And... There are a few other rules sets that are better than DBA/MM, and FoG (Armati, Hail Ceasar, etc.)... They are not too hard to find.

But the ones I have outlined pretty much cover your definition,

MB

FoG is funnier?

/eyebrow quirk



On a more serious note, to the OP, knowing which era of Romans you want to run is important. Early Imperial Romans are the kind people usually think of when they hear the words "Roman Army". Late Imperial Romans typically wear chain mail, and carry long oval flat shields. Marion Romans are generally going to be similar to Early Imperial Romans, but with curved oval shields instead of curved rectangular shields. And before the Marion Romans, the infantry is split into Velites light infantry (who couldn't afford armor), sword-armed Hastati, and spear-armed Triarii.

Eumerin wrote:
FoG is funnier?

/eyebrow quirk

Oops...

I suppose that now FoG is "Funnier."

I REALLY a need to take my iPad into a Mac Store to ask them why it keeps making decisions about words I plan to use.

I don't mind the spell-check function.

But the idiots or morons at Apple have tied the spell-check to their auto-correct, so you cannot use one without the other...

But... Yes... Knowing which Romans makes a little bit of difference.

In FoG, nearly all Romans up to a Late Imperial are identical (save that the Early Republican/Pre-Marian Romans have the Manipular Legions, while after this they use Cohorts). But this difference is ignored in FoG, while it is a part of Hoplon.

I think maybe one or two other rules sets have rules specifically the Acies Triplex formations of the Early Republican Romans, and the Similar maneuvers translated to the Cohots for Late Republican and Early Imperial Legions.... But I am only familiar with Hoplon's rules for this period (I have played other rules for other periods).

Currently, my only historical Armies are a Camillan/Polybian Roman, Later Carthaginian, Gallic, Iberian, and Numidian (all from the same period).

I plan to do some Bronze Age, Early Iron Age Celts/Gauls (1000 - 500 BC), and some Early Italians/Etruscans and Tullian/Servian Romans to go with them... But they are far down the line of miniatures to paint.

What country/region are you in (to the OP)?

MB

so whats the difference? can i use different romans for different games and sets?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
difference between romans i mean, not the games, other than they are in different time periods, can i still use them for everything or as different units in other games?

I am not entirely sure that I understand the question.

Are you asking if you can use an army for an Ahistorical matchup?

People do that all the time.

But you are likely to have very strange results.

If you are asking if you can use Tullian Romans for Early Republican Romans, or Early Republican Romans for Late Republican, or any Republican for Imperial....

You would find that difficult, as the only Troops that passed from one period to the other were the Marian (Late Republican) Romans.

These were used by the First Emperor, Octavian Augustus, for about 20 years, until he began to re-equip and reorganize the Roman Army along the Early Imperial (Principate) line.

So.... Pretty much, Romans are not just Romans.

You have very specific Romans for very specific time-periods, and they don't tend to cross those periods.

This is especially true of the Late Imperial Romans.

Most people, who are only familiar with the "Romans" of Hollywood, will not even recognize the Late Imperial Romans as being Romans.

They will probably correctly identify the Republican Romans, as they typically have the "Roman Looking" shields (although they are oval, rather than square, but still curved).

So... You pretty much need to pick a period of Romans for any one Roman Army (Technically, I have six Roman Armies, but only one is currently painted: Tullian Romans - not painted, and not yet complete, Camillan Romans - which I only lack the Spear-Armed Princeps, Polybian Romans - which is completed, Marian Romans - for which I have the figures, but have not painted them, And Early and Late Imperial Romans - only a part of the army is painted, and I do not yet have all the figures).

I would not recommend trying to build all of the Roman Armies at once, and just picking one, and going with it.

Here are some details about each one:

• Tullian/Servian Romans: These are the earliest Romans, when they were still under a king. These are the Romans who conquered the Latins, and Etruscans.

• Camillan Romans: The first Republican Romans. The wars with Carthage started at the end of this period. The first wars with the Guals started.

• Polybian Romans: These are the Romans who we typically think of as conquering the Roman Empire. They conquered Iberia (Spain), Greece, and much of Gual during this period.

They are also famous as being the Armies who fought Hannibal, and conquered Carthage.

• Marian Romans: These Romans continued the conquest of Gual, and were the Romans of the first civil wars, when Julius Caesar came to power. These are also the Romans that existed during the initial stages of Empire with Caesar Augustus, the first Emperor.

• Early Imperial Romans: These are the Romans everyone thinks of when you say "Romans." But, really... The armies did not do a whole lot. Part of England was conquered. An occasional border war was fought, and attempts to conquer Germany failed.

• Late Imperial Romans: These are the Romans who fought the Huns, and who existed at the fall of the Western Empire. They look the least Roman of all.

MB

ok thx for help, but one more question, can i proxy them as each other for different rules. like use polybian romans forcamillan romans, just as proxy and pretend they are.

so what what happens if i play against someone with different rules, or in a different time period. will i use my polybian or camillan as marian or early imperial romans just pretend that they are them. or cant you do that.

The best answer for you is probably to google the names, and look at the pictures that pop up - obviously at a high level, "javelin armed infantry with mail and shields" can cover a range of armies and periods, so it depends what you want to proxy - at a detailed level, your opposition might want you to model the actual units you are claiming them to be - but this is really down to your opposition.

And to agree with the earlier post, earlier Romans look VERY different to late Roman Empire - even at 6mm scale (have a look at the Baccus 6mm website - they have early, mid and late roman figures there - you can see the evolution of troops, and the different troop types.)

 blood ravens addiction wrote:
ok thx for help, but one more question, can i proxy them as each other for different rules. like use polybian romans forcamillan romans, just as proxy and pretend they are.

so what what happens if i play against someone with different rules, or in a different time period. will i use my polybian or camillan as marian or early imperial romans just pretend that they are them. or cant you do that.

As far as we can tell, presently, the Camillan and Polybian Romans are the closest in appearance as an army..

They are really an identical army, save that the Princeps had spears instead of the Pilum.

And, as far as the Marian Romans... You MIGHT get away with using Polybian Hastati and Princeps as the Marian Legionaires.

But you would be REALLY STRETCHING a it to try to use Republican Romans as Imperial Romans.

There is also the problem that the Imperial Romans had units that bear no relationship whatsoever to any of the early Roman Troops.

This is even more the case with the Late Imperial Legions... As they are so completely different from even Early Imperial Romans that most don't even recognize them.

MB

 blood ravens addiction wrote:
ok thx for help, but one more question, can i proxy them as each other for different rules. like use polybian romans forcamillan romans, just as proxy and pretend they are.

so what what happens if i play against someone with different rules, or in a different time period. will i use my polybian or camillan as marian or early imperial romans just pretend that they are them. or cant you do that.

You can do anything that you and your opponent agree to. Just be sure and get their agreement before doing so, as generally speaking, Historical gamers are more likely to become upset or not be willing to allow proxied troops in that form. Which doesn't by any means describe all Historical gamers, but just so you're aware.

If you're proxying an army because you want to try it out, most (but not all) people are fine with that. Just make sure that it's very clear which figures are which, and that you're opponent can easily tell what each figure is armed with.

If you've decided that you like a particular army, and start playing it consistantly, then most players are going to expect you to start acquiring the proper figures for it (or reasonably close approximations).

I would just get an army and start playing. Especially in 15mm, historical armies are so much cheaper than GW that it's no big deal to own several of them. Once you get used to the rules, you will be able to form a good idea of the capabilities and tactics of an army just from reading its list.

Seconding Kilkrazy here.

With a GW product, you are going to pay $50 - $100 for just one or two units.

For a 15mm army... That's the WHOLE army! (including command figures and special units).

It cost me as much to buy every 15mm army I own as it did to buy the Easterling Cataphracts and Leaders for the EASTERLINGS for my LotR armies (mostly it was the leaders/special figures that cost).

And almost every 15mm manufacturer has specials for buying army packages, where they sell the core army for around $75.

MB

And if you are looking at DBA, a lot of the 15mm producers have ready made army packs containing everything needed for each DBA army list, except maybe a camp.

ok thx for help. ill probably have more than one army then. polybian and early imperial.

 blood ravens addiction wrote:
ok thx for help. ill probably have more than one army then. polybian and early imperial.

For the Early Imperial Romans:

http://www.thewarstore.com/CorvusBelli15mm.html

For the Polybian Romans:

http://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/collections/15mm-ready-made-armies-ancient/products/rma101

Ignore that it says "Camillan Romans" on the Essex Page. It is really a Polybian Army, and they have had that error for decades now.

The Corvus Belli miniatures are the best 15mm EIR miniatures on the market.

Corvus Belli also makes the best miniatures for enemies of both Roman Armies as well: Carthaginians (only for the Polybians/Camillans), Gallic & Ancient British (enemies of both), Iberian (Only Polybian), Numidians (both), Kappadocians (both)...

And Corvus Belli makes the Legionaires for Marian (best available). You use the other nationalities for support troops, and the commands ignores from the EIR as the command figures for the Marian Romans...

Technically, Xyston also makes some spectacular looking Polybian and Camillan Romans.

There is just one tiny problem with them:

They are really 20mm miniatures. The sculptor really dropped the ball after Xyston was bought by Scotia-Grendel.

But Xyston makes Guals and Iberians that mix well with the Corvus Belli miniatures.

Xyston also makes the most spectacular Ancient Greek, Alexandrian/Macedonian, Indian, and Persian miniatures (miniatures that would be for armies from the early Hoplite period of Greece, to the Persian Invasions, to the Peloponnesian Wars, to the conquest of Alexander the Great and the successor Kingdoms, right up to the wars of Greece and Rome (which uses the Camillan AND Polybian Romans).

I have a mountain to Xyston figures that need to be painted... I wish that their Romans were just 2mm shorter...

MB

I thought Corvus Belli stopped producing their 15mm ranges?
That means getting enough miniatures from them could become a problem.

The War Store still has stock, and I imagine it will not be too long before someone buys the lines.

So... If they have limited stock...

I would advise the OP to hurry and buy what you need for your EIR, and any other armies you might want as enemies (Such as Ancient British) before I and others clean them out.

MB

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I thought Corvus Belli stopped producing their 15mm ranges?
That means getting enough miniatures from them could become a problem.

That would be a real shame. I have a DBA EIR army from Corvus Belli and if they are going out of production I want to get enough to bring it up to a full size army.

A quick Google seems to show that Corvus Belli themselves are no longer selling their figures directly but they are still available from other suppliers, while stocks last.

Perhaps someone will buy the moulds.

Even though I am trying to convert to 28mm/30mm historical armies, I think that I am going to scrounge together the cash to complete my Gallic/Ancient British (all options), and Marian Romans (for which I need another 8 elements/bases).

MB

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I thought Corvus Belli stopped producing their 15mm ranges?
That means getting enough miniatures from them could become a problem.

That would be a real shame. I have a DBA EIR army from Corvus Belli and if they are going out of production I want to get enough to bring it up to a full size army.

A quick Google seems to show that Corvus Belli themselves are no longer selling their figures directly but they are still available from other suppliers, while stocks last.

Perhaps someone will buy the moulds.

It will be a great shame if they don't, think those sculpts are pretty well regarded amongst collectors of that era and scale.

Usually moulds make their way from one company to another if one stops trading or the owner retires etc., I would be surprised if that wasn't the case here.

 blood ravens addiction wrote:
Hey, im looking for a rules set for 15mm romans, and i was wondering which ones best andmost popular?

15mm Romans would be a great place to start Ancient wargaming, so good choice. As to what is popular, it doesn't really matter what is popular in one place if no-one near you is playing it, so if you want to play against other local gamers it's best to find out what is popular near you.
"Best" is obviously very subjective and depends a lot on what type of game you want. The great thing with historical gaming is you can build your armies and then play with them under lots of different rules. With 15mm there is a pretty much standard basing convention of 40mm frontage (known as WRG or DBX standard basing) so if you base your figures on this standard you can use them in lots of different rules. Most rules for 15mm figures use elements / bases (e.g FOG, DBX) or larger units (e.g. Impetus, Sword & Spear), with the larger units normally being double the frontage of the 40mm bases.
I would recommend Late Republican or Early Imperial Roman as a good starting point. These will both give you lots of choice of historic opponents. As to proxying figures, most Ancients players are used to playing ahistoric match-ups, so would happily play EIR vs Carthagian (instead of the correct match-up of Republican Roman vs Carthaginian), etc.
For rules, the best thing is to get a shortlist, read some reviews, compare them to what you want in a game, and if possible try out some of the games with an experienced player.
You can read some reviews of Sword & Spear (of which I am the author) here:
http://polkovnik.moonfruit.com/sword-spear-reviews/

Polkovnik wrote:

 blood ravens addiction wrote:
Hey, im looking for a rules set for 15mm romans, and i was wondering which ones best andmost popular?

15mm Romans would be a great place to start Ancient wargaming, so good choice. As to what is popular, it doesn't really matter what is popular in one place if no-one near you is playing it, so if you want to play against other local gamers it's best to find out what is popular near you.
"Best" is obviously very subjective and depends a lot on what type of game you want. The great thing with historical gaming is you can build your armies and then play with them under lots of different rules. With 15mm there is a pretty much standard basing convention of 40mm frontage (known as WRG or DBX standard basing) so if you base your figures on this standard you can use them in lots of different rules. Most rules for 15mm figures use elements / bases (e.g FOG, DBX) or larger units (e.g. Impetus, Sword & Spear), with the larger units normally being double the frontage of the 40mm bases.
I would recommend Late Republican or Early Imperial Roman as a good starting point. These will both give you lots of choice of historic opponents. As to proxying figures, most Ancients players are used to playing ahistoric match-ups, so would happily play EIR vs Carthagian (instead of the correct match-up of Republican Roman vs Carthaginian), etc.
For rules, the best thing is to get a shortlist, read some reviews, compare them to what you want in a game, and if possible try out some of the games with an experienced player.
You can read some reviews of Sword & Spear (of which I am the author) here:
http://polkovnik.moonfruit.com/sword-spear-reviews/

yeah that is a good point... ill have to see what others are doing. THX all

BeAfraid wrote:
• Early Imperial Romans: These are the Romans everyone thinks of when you say "Romans." But, really... The armies did not do a whole lot. Part of England was conquered. An occasional border war was fought, and attempts to conquer Germany failed.

Just wanted to point out that under Trajan, the Roman Empire reached its height in terms of territory under control. Then from Trajan to Severus you have all sorts of interesting fighting with the Parthians and Sassanids and then the crisis of the 3rd century where you have constant civil war and uprisings and whatnot is a great era for gaming.
This:

Becomes this:

Describing them as not doing a whole lot completely ignores the east, which was a far greater jewel than conquering Germania would have been. The armies that fought the Gauls and fought in Brittania got plunder, slaves and glory, but the ones that fought in the east added cities, industry and trade to the empire. And the loss of them over the next 200 years is just as interesting for gaming as the gaining of them.

Beauty of historical games, since DBxx is so popular, or at least dominant, or at least it was, or something. if you use the basing guidelines for it you can generally manage any historical set of rules.

Essentially write rules that don't work with the DBxx basing system and a lot less people will play it.

Currently doing New Kingdoms Egypt, army has cost sub £100 so far for a fair few models.

Get mine from Essex Miniatures, price is reasonable, they have 'ready made armies', which are a decent start if you have no idea what to get and the turn around for delivery is pretty fast.