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A thought occurred to me not too long ago. As Chaos are the only ones that can do it, I was wondering how many of you chaos players actually take more than 10 Chaos Marines in a squad, and if you find it to be worth it?
That goes for any setup you use, not just bare bones.

Now, for you loyalists, would you consider taking more than 10 Tacticals in a squad if you could?

If no (for either of you), why not?
And what if you could take an additional heavy/special for every 5th man in the squad, would you consider it/do it then?

Edit: I forgot about the Combat Squads rule. For this, assume it works with 20 men, splitting into two 10-man squads.

I wouldn't for my loyalists, simply as I like the way the 10-man squads and the Combat Squads rule works. However, if I were playing Chaos then I'd probably build a list around 2 squads of 20, as an almost-horde of screaming, blood-crazed nutters is about as Chaos as it gets, and it would play totally differently, becoming more a sledgehammer rather than the stanley knife of Loyalist Tacticals.

I would do the same with SW Blood Claws if I hadn't already built most of my guys as Grey Hunters and love the way they play.

 Paradigm wrote:
I wouldn't for my loyalists, simply as I like the way the 10-man squads and the Combat Squads rule works. However, if I were playing Chaos then I'd probably build a list around 2 squads of 20, as an almost-horde of screaming, blood-crazed nutters is about as Chaos as it gets, and it would play totally differently, becoming more a sledgehammer rather than the stanley knife of Loyalist Tacticals.

I would do the same with SW Blood Claws if I hadn't already built most of my guys as Grey Hunters and love the way they play.

Hmm I forgot about the combat squads rule (surprising since I use it a lot).
If it worked with a 20 man squad, splitting into two 10-man squads, would you consider it then?

Works great in Legion lists. Its quite often to see 20 marines in a squad.

No, usually not, it is often more effective to grab 2x10 than 1x20, for all reasons other than if you grab an icon, in which case you will get a little more bang for the buck in a big squad.

I have ran Noise Marines in megablobs of 20 Marines, which is fun (whey hey, 60 bolter shots that ignores cover), but is god damned expensive for a stationary unit.

If it worked more like legion lists, with high buy in for a squad but cheaper bodies, i might run larger squads.

For my loyalist marines, It would depend on the size of the game being played.
1. Larger games, I would definitely do it with at least one unit. This because it would open up a few more options for me and allow me to have possibly twice the number of units while only taking up half the slots. I often dont combat squad 10 man squads because sometimes just 5 guys dont cut it.
2. In smaller games, I probably wouldnt because then I might actually want to do a few combat squads and would want the higher concentration of special/heavy weapons.

For my chaos (Im a lil outdated here as I havnt actually used them in a long time. Definitely since before the current codex. I usually took 10 man squads. mostly because I'm set and ordered and its a nice round number and used large numbers of the squads as many as I could get to fill a huge body count while still having flexibility of unit numbers. Ork players seemed to hate that I outnumbered them. Again, because it allowed me a higher concentration of heavy/special weapons. I would occasionally pop in a spare guy to a unit to fill in points if needed.

I think a lot more players would be open to the idea if you were allowed a 2nd special OR heavy weapon at 15 guys and a 2nd special AND 2nd heavy weapon at 20 guys.
This way, you could park 10 guys on a home objective with 2 heavy weapons to take pot shotsand a 10 mansquad in a rhino to move forward and help flush the enemy off their objectives with 2 special weapons. OR just pak whatever combination you want on your home objectives.

 EVIL INC wrote:
For my loyalist marines, It would depend on the size of the game being played.
1. Larger games, I would definitely do it with at least one unit. This because it would open up a few more options for me and allow me to have possibly twice the number of units while only taking up half the slots. I often dont combat squad 10 man squads because sometimes just 5 guys dont cut it.
2. In smaller games, I probably wouldnt because then I might actually want to do a few combat squads and would want the higher concentration of special/heavy weapons..

^ This.

I normally run no more than 10 CSMs in Rhinos, favoring MSU builds. If 15 and 20 bodies opened up more special/heavy weapons and I could combat squad the unit....then definitely, especially for big games.

As far as loyalist goes, I"ve never had the thought "I wish I had more Troops slots". I normally run minimal Troops with my Blood Angels, and those that I do are again in 10-body transports like Drop Pods or Rhinos. Now if you could take a DT for every 10 models...I may be talking myself into it now, lol.

 KthuluQball wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
For my loyalist marines, It would depend on the size of the game being played.
1. Larger games, I would definitely do it with at least one unit. This because it would open up a few more options for me and allow me to have possibly twice the number of units while only taking up half the slots. I often dont combat squad 10 man squads because sometimes just 5 guys dont cut it.
2. In smaller games, I probably wouldnt because then I might actually want to do a few combat squads and would want the higher concentration of special/heavy weapons..

^ This.

I normally run no more than 10 CSMs in Rhinos, favoring MSU builds. If 15 and 20 bodies opened up more special/heavy weapons and I could combat squad the unit....then definitely, especially for big games.

As far as loyalist goes, I"ve never had the thought "I wish I had more Troops slots". I normally run minimal Troops with my Blood Angels, and those that I do are again in 10-body transports like Drop Pods or Rhinos. Now if you could take a DT for every 10 models...I may be talking myself into it now, lol.

You could just buy a rhino or Drop Pod from the fast attack section.
Sure, it isn't quite the same, but it would be doable.

BA, SW, and GK have me jelly right now. You get Fast Attack pods.

I think even I would take 20-man tacticals with extra heavy/special weapons...
It sounds much more appealing to me.

For CSM anything out of a landraider/rhino that is a space marine is dead very very dead (if it isn't camping at the back like havocs) .... So if you want dead things yes field them in squads over 10...

 Ond Angel wrote:

 KthuluQball wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
BA, SW, and GK have me jelly right now. You get Fast Attack pods..

The tactical flexibility is awesome having FA Drop Pods. Combat squad a flamer-heavy Tactical Squad between a DT Drop Pod with ObSec, and a FA Drop Pod against horde armies is one use.

Don't worry, I'm sure C:SM will get FA Drop Pods. After all, they got the Stormraven.

Meanwhile I'm over here weeping over BA not getting a Thunderfire Cannon. That thing has done some WORK for me in the past.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
For CSM anything out of a landraider/rhino that is a space marine is dead very very dead (if it isn't camping at the back like havocs) .... So if you want dead things yes field them in squads over 10...

I don't know about that.
I've played a few games with chaos marines, but I don't have any tanks (barring 1 LRC. I used it as a counts-as godhammer).
I ran things across the board, albeit in 10-man squads, due to being advised against going any bigger. I wish I had ran 20-man squads looking back, just for the tarpitting and larger amount of attacks against Curze (spelling? The primarch of the Nightlords).
Granted, I won anyway. I just feel it would have been nicer.

"just for the tarpitting and larger amount of attacks against Curze (spelling? The primarch of the Nightlords)."- Ond Angel Well you used em for tarp-pitting so yes if you are going to use them as a tarpit keep em out of transport, but if you want em to be heavy hitters get one

Anyone claiming taking large squads of vanilla chaos marines is good is either playing it for fluff reasons or deluding themselves. Most Chaos players don't take any marines that aren't cult options in the troops slot because expensive units that can get swept and have little to no effective firepower, combined with no real transport options for getting up the board just aren't good.

That said I do sometimes take the 20 man squads in apocalypse, combined with the legionnaire warband and arkos the faithless who's finest hour let's them assault from a no scatter deepstrike he grants them, only time I get to do it but I'll admit that is fun when it happens.

^ I do not agree with this.

There are 2 effective ways to run a CSM blob as a squad of 20. 1st way is to infiltrate them with Hurons Warlord trait, 2nd way is to catapult them forward 18" T1 from a bunker with escape hatch.
Make sure they have bp & ccw, MoK and Icon of Wrath, with a couple of specials and a powerfist/power weapon & melta bombs.
Also make sure they are not alone. Ensure there are fast moving units or other infiltrating units with them.

I can see large unit 20csm with buff psy. Power or dark apostl. Better than 10 man.

Not Marines, but the 20-strong Sisters blobs are only really effective at anything other than holding position if you give them Priests, so I can't imagine it's that much more effective with a mere +1 WS/S/T.

What about +1ws/s/t/a (from bp&ccw), rage, counterattack, furious charge and infiltrate?

I've found the real failing right now with basic CSM's to be the fact we haven't had ANY new weapon upgrade options since 3rd edition... Meanwhile, Loyalists across their various varients have been handed back Hand Flamers/Heavy Flamers, Inferno Pistols, Grav Pistols/Guns/Combi's & Multi-Meltas, on top of getting the hilariously better Plasma Cannon vs. Autocannon option.

If our basic CSM squads could take at the very least Hand/Heavy Flamers, it would be a boon for the likes of MoK/MoS units going ccw/pistol. On top of that, we could really use our own 'Chaosy' special/heavy weapon to fix the disparity between the Grav Gun + Plasma Cannon + Multi-melta vs. Autocannon idiocy.

Obviously you need to clarify that there's no way for them to get +1 WS unless they are cult marines, the +1S lasts a single turn, all the attack bonuses are reliant on one turn of charging unlike the older (better) version of MoK. Infiltrate means they're not going to be charging in the first turn as anyone competent is going to be sure to stay outside of charge range unless it's something they want you to charge if they're going first.

I know on paper you look at it and go 'oh wow this'll be lethal', the thing is you've spent 370 points on one troop choice before you even take into account things like the bunker or huron to make what you're talking about possible, that means you're spending upwards of 500 points to make it possible, with the game as it is right now 500 points of any of the competitive army will decimate that unit before it gets to do anything, 20 T4 3+ save wounds is not a lot. People will either dance around it throwing it chaff while scoring all the objectives or they'll focus it for a turn and make it useless. Then there's also the problem of the easily snipable banner, and the lack of fearless which means having to attach a lord/huron to the unit otherwise five wounds could see it running off the table. There's a reason no one actually plays these units outside of very friendly games.

Edit: Oh and the fact you can only take a maximum of two specials at 10+ is another reason not to go for it, those extra marines are carrying nothing to make the unit more versatile.

I think the mentioned +1 WS was from the difference between Sisters (WS3) and Marines (WS4), rather than from anything else.

Ah see now that makes a little more sense

Don't get me wrong I wish it was more viable, might make chaos marines stand out a little more from their loyalist brethren, it just really isn't otherwise we'd be seeing it pop up a lot more.

 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:
Obviously you need to clarify that there's no way for them to get +1 WS unless they are cult marines, the +1S lasts a single turn, all the attack bonuses are reliant on one turn of charging unlike the older (better) version of MoK. Infiltrate means they're not going to be charging in the first turn as anyone competent is going to be sure to stay outside of charge range unless it's something they want you to charge if they're going first.

I know on paper you look at it and go 'oh wow this'll be lethal', the thing is you've spent 370 points on one troop choice before you even take into account things like the bunker or huron to make what you're talking about possible, that means you're spending upwards of 500 points to make it possible, with the game as it is right now 500 points of any of the competitive army will decimate that unit before it gets to do anything, 20 T4 3+ save wounds is not a lot. People will either dance around it throwing it chaff while scoring all the objectives or they'll focus it for a turn and make it useless. Then there's also the problem of the easily snipable banner, and the lack of fearless which means having to attach a lord/huron to the unit otherwise five wounds could see it running off the table. There's a reason no one actually plays these units outside of very friendly games.

Edit: Oh and the fact you can only take a maximum of two specials at 10+ is another reason not to go for it, those extra marines are carrying nothing to make the unit more versatile.

All good points. However, if you build a list around it, it can be effective. Say, Cypher in the unit for Shrouded, H&R and ATSKNF. Supported by fast moving units/transported units and other infiltrators. By itself, you are completely correct. It needs to be part of a wider strategy. That being said, I prefer to infiltrate 4 specs & a combi in a 10 man havoc squad in a rhino if given the option, especially if i've flooded the board with specs from Cyphers chosen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeh - I was comparing to sisters :-p

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Ignatius-Grulgor wrote:
Obviously you need to clarify that there's no way for them to get +1 WS unless they are cult marines, the +1S lasts a single turn, all the attack bonuses are reliant on one turn of charging unlike the older (better) version of MoK. Infiltrate means they're not going to be charging in the first turn as anyone competent is going to be sure to stay outside of charge range unless it's something they want you to charge if they're going first.

I know on paper you look at it and go 'oh wow this'll be lethal', the thing is you've spent 370 points on one troop choice before you even take into account things like the bunker or huron to make what you're talking about possible, that means you're spending upwards of 500 points to make it possible, with the game as it is right now 500 points of any of the competitive army will decimate that unit before it gets to do anything, 20 T4 3+ save wounds is not a lot. People will either dance around it throwing it chaff while scoring all the objectives or they'll focus it for a turn and make it useless. Then there's also the problem of the easily snipable banner, and the lack of fearless which means having to attach a lord/huron to the unit otherwise five wounds could see it running off the table. There's a reason no one actually plays these units outside of very friendly games.

Edit: Oh and the fact you can only take a maximum of two specials at 10+ is another reason not to go for it, those extra marines are carrying nothing to make the unit more versatile.

All good points. However, if you build a list around it, it can be effective. Say, Cypher in the unit for Shrouded, H&R and ATSKNF. Supported by fast moving units/transported units and other infiltrators. By itself, you are completely correct. It needs to be part of a wider strategy. That being said, I prefer to infiltrate 4 specs & a combi in a 10 man havoc squad in a rhino if given the option, especially if i've flooded the board with specs from Cyphers chosen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeh - I was comparing to sisters :-p

a list built around it isn't effective at all. Power Armor is easy to drown in shots, and I'd go as far as to say it's probably First Blood.

20 Marines with shrouded and Cypher are not going to give away 1st blood very easily at all. Looking at small arms (best way to drown in shots) on average it's 180 bs4 bolter shots, ~130 bs4 shuriken catapult shots, 360 bs3 lasgun shots etc. I have used the Cypher + Huron list to great effect a fair few times. If said unit is absorbing all the shots, they are ignoring your juggerlord, special totting chosen and bikes that are also closing very fast.

For loyalist it would depend on how the weapon loadout would work. If say I could have any combination of special/heavy weapon per 5 guys, It might be tempting. You could basically get a dev squad as troops choice, and send the other 10 in a rhino to grab objectives. Park the 4 heavy weapons with 6 extra wounds on a back objective.

If it was say 2 special and 2 heavy weapons at 20, it might still be tempting to do it. Have 10 guys, with two special weapons move up in a rhino and fire their guns out the top, while the two heavy weapons sit in the back.

The thing about loyalist marines though, is they are still just regular tactical marines. Maybe in the vanilla codex you might be able to come up with some shenanigans with CT and/or characters. The best I could think of in the DA codex would maybe be put Azrael in a squad of 20 with 4 special weapons, and with their 4++ they would survive a few turns, but still, not great.

 pwntallica wrote:
For loyalist it would depend on how the weapon loadout would work. If say I could have any combination of special/heavy weapon per 5 guys, It might be tempting. You could basically get a dev squad as troops choice, and send the other 10 in a rhino to grab objectives. Park the 4 heavy weapons with 6 extra wounds on a back objective.

If it was say 2 special and 2 heavy weapons at 20, it might still be tempting to do it. Have 10 guys, with two special weapons move up in a rhino and fire their guns out the top, while the two heavy weapons sit in the back.

The thing about loyalist marines though, is they are still just regular tactical marines. Maybe in the vanilla codex you might be able to come up with some shenanigans with CT and/or characters. The best I could think of in the DA codex would maybe be put Azrael in a squad of 20 with 4 special weapons, and with their 4++ they would survive a few turns, but still, not great.

I meant having two specials and two heavies when you're at 20 men.
So 5 is Special OR heavy
10 is one of each.
15 is 2 of one, 1 of the other
20 is 2 of each.

my biggest issue with units larger than 10 models is that they aren't mobile enough. you can't mash them into a single transport (short of something absurdly expensive like a spartan assault tank) and even if you wasted a force org slot on a second transport, you can't split the unit up anyway. plus, there's an opportunity cost in terms of lost special/heavy weapons that you would otherwise get by running two 10-man units instead of one 20-man unit.

I might consider it as part of a gimmicky chaos list, such as 19 MoK CCW marines plus a cc lord charging out of a spartan or a 20-man enhanced unit infiltrating with huron & what's-his-bucket (the chaos apothecary guy), but not as part of a TAC list.