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I've certainly overreacted to a lot of stuff that came out in 2013 / 2014 Including:

Malefic Psychic (Daemon Factory).

Unbound Lists.

Escalation.

Formations.

Imperial Knights.

Maelstrom Missions.

And probably a bunch of other things I've forgotten to mention.


Having played all the above though, I would maintain them all (though I realize others may disagree and opinions vary).

Malefic isn't that OP, thematically it fits Daemons and it adds a different challenge when playing against them. Unbound, LoWs and Formations bring more diverse lists to the table. And, they are mitigated from being too OP by Maelstrom, which in turn, if you allow discard of Objectives that are impossible to complete, makes for a more dynamic game. Knights are cool to see but aren't OP either; the friends I play with have become so good at taking down Knights that without fail they will kill the (my) Adamantine Lance within 3 Turns (a Knight or more a Turn).

I think the only thing we've struggled around is Invisibility, lol.


But, I think the reason my experience has been such, is that the group / friends I play with are a good lot, and for that I am thankful.


Feel free to comment on your experience (even if different) but please let's not let this thread degrade into GW bashing nor an argument over who's experience is more 'valid'.

From a mere casual view of the game, most of those things are still issues or still seen at the highest competitive level. Thus, likely the most powerful/overpowered within the game. Not seeing them locally doesn't mean they aren't an issue.

Also, random (e.g. Maelstrom) is terrible game design no matter how you cut it. *shrug* That won't change until it's deleted.

My experience with things has largely matched what I expected.

I originally said that, if played well, daemon summon factory is crazy, but won't fit into any timed format like a tourney.

A few vassal games with no time limit later...yeah I was pretty spot on.

I correctly spotted Tau, eldar, riptides specifically, wave serpents specifically, and jet council specifically, as top/OP choices.

I was in kind of a sabbatical when 6e marines came out, so by the time I read them, I already heard that grav cent devs were doing great things.

I said unbound would pretty much be unallowed everywhere. True here, and I never see batreps with it online.

I said knights would be ok as an ally for 1, MAYBE 2, but full armies of them would be aggravatingly strong. I consider that to still be true.

I said no one would play escalation. True.

I have a pretty good accuracy track record. :p

Just curious, do most people not play Maelstrom, Unbound, etc. then?

I'll admit, maybe it's my group that's odd then, as almost all our games are Maelstrom and with Unbound allowed.


But, I can also see how in Tournaments it could be an issue where a lucky card draw would have your Troops already sitting on the Objectives that need to be captured.


Thanks for describing your different experiences. Am still interested in hearing more, but continue to keep it civil (no heated arguments for / against Tournaments, etc.).

 KiloFiX wrote:
Just curious, do most people not play Maelstrom, Unbound, etc. then?

I'll admit, maybe it's my group that's odd then, as almost all our games are Maelstrom and with Unbound allowed.


But, I can also see how in Tournaments it could be an issue where a lucky card draw would have your Troops already sitting on the Objectives that need to be captured.


Thanks for describing your different experiences. Am still interested in hearing more, but continue to keep it civil (no heated arguments for / against Tournaments, etc.).

Unbound is sort of a urban legend. You see about as many people playing them as you do unicorns running around. Sure, some have toyed with them but for the most part, scurried right back to the "older" format. Having said that there will likely now be spammage posts of "oh I play unbound ALLLLLLLL the time" lol
With maelstrom, your going to find a mixed bag of answers. Personally, I think it is a little too random and game changing not to mention "fiddly".
It has changed the tournament scene though. Take all comers lists are much harder to do as with the lords of war and all, you have to tailor for them which would leave you vulnerable to any list that doesnt have them. I'm startin to see TOs start to run different tourney t ups alternating them to allow them or not to have games for both camps.

Nice to see a relatively optimistic thread. Have an exalt, OP.

I was freaking out about unbound and multi-cads at first. Then I realized unbound is basically presented in the book as, "Hey, this is a little crazy, but it's meant to let you have fun with your buddies. Talk it over with them before doing it, and don't be a dick." Now, unbound is basically just that thing that happens when you forget models or don't want to have to overthink list building too much. Usually people use it to play with one less troop, and it's usually not too crazy in such a scenario. Multicad still sort of irks me though. Just feels like there isn't much point to the force org chart. ^_^; Unbound seems like it could be fun for themed games, but we haven't really used it as such yet.

Maelstrom is weird in that I find most of the complaints about it to be completely accurate, and yet I simply don't care. Sometimes you get really one-sided games with maelstrom or spastic games where your troops move in random directions each turn. It feels weird, and I really think it could be improved on somehow. That said, I almost always have fun with Maelstrom missions. If my army is getting wiped out, I might still win on objectives. If my opponent is dominating objectives, I still find myself having fun trying to take chunks out of his army. It strongly discourages gunlines (usually) and forces people to play a ore forward, interesting game.

I freaked out over rumors about malefic, but I haven't been too terribly scared of it since actually seeing the powers. It's a solid table, but not something that's impossible to deal with. If your opponent is going for a daemon factory, it's more annoying than anything. Mechanized elements usually deal with it just fine. It usually just makes me give my opponent a :T look because it's a time-intensive playstyle on an army that already takes a lot of time to set up (random gifts, etc.)

I overreacted to the changes to vehicle durability. I was burning out on the game because of vehicle spam in 5th edition. 6th edition was a welcome break from that, and I worried 7th edition would just be a return to the parking lots I hated. Turns out, vehicles still die in 7th, and full mech is a rarity around my area unless you count drop pod armies.

 TheKbob wrote:
From a mere casual view of the game, most of those things are still issues or still seen at the highest competitive level. Thus, likely the most powerful/overpowered within the game. Not seeing them locally doesn't mean they aren't an issue.

Also, random (e.g. Maelstrom) is terrible game design no matter how you cut it. *shrug* That won't change until it's deleted.

This. I think Maelstrom is fine, as it can be a weakness for certain armies, but LoW, Knights, and certain Formations are still rather OP in casual settings and really affect the game.

Daemon Factory is thankfully rare, but I can see how that becomes annoying fast, if nothing else than for the amount of time it takes to generate all the powers.

A lot of tournaments, and therefore a lot of pickup games too where these tournament players or their friends practise, use the 'standard' comp package of 'no unbound, no lords of war that are superheavies or gargantuans, only one primary and secondary detachment which may or may not be formations' and it seems to result in everyone knowing more or less what to expect from the games. You can bring your 'against all comers' list and as long as its reasonably tuned you will get to have a challenging game.

That said, tournaments that allow forgeworld and the lords of war in the forgeworld pdf aren't 'once in a full moon' rare either. Titans seem to be allowed more often than unbound.

In any case I think overall as long as the game community takes initiative and agrees to some principles and rules the situation is very good. The game allows all sorts of events to be created. Ones with more restrictions and ones with less. It'll result in something for everybody, and those that love to play all game types just get a lot of variation.

 EVIL INC wrote:

Unbound is sort of a urban legend. You see about as many people playing them as you do unicorns running around. Sure, some have toyed with them but for the most part, scurried right back to the "older" format. Having said that there will likely now be spammage posts of "oh I play unbound ALLLLLLLL the time" lol

Hah! I like that

We do play unbound from time to time, but I feel that we do it in a way that is in the spirit of the game, rather than to have a tactical advantage. Mostly, we create scenarios, where we purposely want to give one or both sides units that wouldn't fit on any FoC. For example, there may be an assault on a stronghold, and the attacking side gets an abnormal number of aerial units, and the defender gets way too much by way of fortifications. Or, retreive a sanguinary cup within 10 turns -- relic is held by a Tyranid army of mostly undesirable, ground-slogging units, and assaulting army is all Blood Angels terminators.

It's actually kind of fun, because you can have the chance to use units that normally collect dust on the shelf -- and sucky units are just fine, as long as both sides are using them

Kind of like playing Magic The Gathering, with only common cards

All the things you list have made my games of 7th some of the most fun I've had with 40k.

Malefic Psychic (Daemon Factory).

No one plays demons here, so I don't even know if they are a problem right now. There were some problems with demon spaming lists, but that was before GK got their new dex and before some stuff was house ruled here.

Unbound Lists.

Same as FW, no one will allow another to play it, because it gives too much of an edge to the person with bigger collection.

Escalation.

Made 1/3 of people here quit the game in 3ed. No body uses it anymore and LoW are not accepted in games. So no idea, if they are broken right now.

Formations.

The idea that those would give a codex or an army a new way to play was good. The fact that for some armies playing a formation is the only way has the opposit effect. Ah and decurion is stupid.

Imperial Knights.

Broken. give huge options to armies that are already good, let eldar highlander better , buffs biker armies etc

Maelstrom Missions.

For me personaly it brought my army from fun to play and good, to unfun and impossible to win against good armies. In general it may have been a good idea, like formations, but without house ruling the draw&discard it buffs armies that are fast and with good msu, and makes armies without those specialy more static armies impossible to win with.

I played in 5th and 6th. Liked both editions, 7th is a horrible one for me and super "fun" for 3 other people I play with.

We prefer to use formation and detachment for the bonus they give out but my friend and I don't really mind about Unbound. as for the rest I think they are really awesome and make for fun game outside of tounament play like we do.

My group plays maelstrom all the time, we have at least 2 unbound armies every time we all get together. Escalation, imperial knights, and lords of war have all added a really interesting dynamic to the game ( the transcendent C'tan was the only real problem unit) the only daemon summoning list we have is crimson slaughter supplement with a daemonified sorcerer.

We are not an urban legend, we just have no reason to post rant after rant about how unplayable and broken a game that we play(and enjoy) several times a month.
Also, before I am pounced upon as a white knight, I have a thread about dropping the power level of eldar. The waveserpent is really the only overpowered thing in the game. Most complaints about units being too weak directly compairs said unit to them.

None of those things in the OP's list bother me. They allow for greater variety in the games you play and force you to rethink your strategies when you use or encounter the rules.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
My group plays maelstrom all the time, we have at least 2 unbound armies every time we all get together. Escalation, imperial knights, and lords of war have all added a really interesting dynamic to the game ( the transcendent C'tan was the only real problem unit) the only daemon summoning list we have is crimson slaughter supplement with a daemonified sorcerer.

We are not an urban legend, we just have no reason to post rant after rant about how unplayable and broken a game that we play(and enjoy) several times a month.
Also, before I am pounced upon as a white knight, I have a thread about dropping the power level of eldar. The waveserpent is really the only overpowered thing in the game. Most complaints about units being too weak directly compairs said unit to them.

Thing is, I'm in a similar position, the worst we have in my area (that I've seen) is a pair of Serpent Spam/WK Eldar players (compounded by the fact that one is played by someone who, well, let's just say is tough to get on with.)

I've experimented with summoning (as a CD player) and I can tell you, if it weren't for my own restraint, given the models I have access to, it would be decidedly unpleasant to play against, the most I include is a Horror unit with the Primaris as a rule, and being able to churn out 10 free bodies every turn I've a mind to against pretty much anyone but Eldar (and even then more often than not) is strong enough at 1500 points.

Knights are just starting to creep in here and there, but usually only singles, and more for fluff than power reasons (ie they're not being shoved into power builds, they're in lists which are otherwise pretty MOTR in terms of power.)

But, I've never been held up and robbed at gun point either, it doesn't mean I'm ok with the fact that it happens to other people.