Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey everyone!

I'm a longtime fan of 40k, but I will admit I haven't actually played since way back in 3rd edition days. Anyway, I like to experiment with rule-tweaking and just flat out additions to the already existing content (obviously not in anything resembling an official game, but you know: for funsies.)

So I've been working on the Iron Knights for both fluff purposes and game purposes. I wanted to create a really fire-power heavy space-marine army that would most likely focus on smaller squads of
more expensive units. I am going to say right now that I have NO IDEA how to do point costs (even close) so if anyone can give me some help for the various point costs on the following list I would greatly appreciate it.

Anyway: here is my additions so far towards making the Iron Knights a very distinct and unusual space-marine chapter. I hope you enjoy!

“Iron Knights”

-Colors: Gleaming Gray, and black trim.

-Motto: “Nobility, Adaptability, Strength, Victory.”
-Battle Cry: “Strike, death, silent as the swan”

New Units:

HQ:

1. Gunslinger:
Much of the Iron Knights history revolves around working around some great tragedy. One of the greatest tragedies in their history was the catastrophic failure of the Plasma Reactor of Battle-Barge 66. This single event killed nearly every tech marine in the chapter and, as they were in the middle of a campaign at the time, they were forced to seek out unorthodox replacements. Imperial Guard regiments, Mechanicum cults, and even Arbites jails around the sector were scoured for any personnel that might allow the chapter to continue its' current crusade. After the successful completion of the crusade the new recruits were cast aside in favor of reinforcements from mars. Thankfully the Iron Knights have always been a chapter with the ability to adapt. By re-purposing the augmented sections of these tech-marines brains into advanced targeting and reflex computers the Iron Knights not only found a use for the men, but also the surplus of outdated Super-Heavy-Bolt-Revolvers that had been cluttering their munitions depots since their founding.

Stats:
WS 4, BS 5, S4, T5, W2, I2, A2, LD 9, SV 2+

Composition:
1 Gunslinger (For every troop and HQ choice in your army, not counting other Gunslingers, you may include a Gunslinger. These do not use up a force organization slot. These act as independent characters.)

Special Rules:
-And they shall know no fear
-Independent character
-Lighting Reflexes (When firing snap shots a gunslinger hits on a roll of 4-6.)

Wargear:
-Artificer Armor
-2 Blessed Six Guns (Super-Heavy Bolt Revolvers) (R 24”, S5, AP2, Rapid Fire)

Options:
-May include up to two additional servo arms with Blessed Six Guns at a cost of +X per arm. Each arm gives an additional attack with the blessed six gun.


Troops:
1. Iron Shield Tactical Squad:
The Strength of the Iron Knights come from two sources, the first being a strong offense capable of rending even the most stubborn Xenos into stinking meat. The second being an impenetrable defense that no heretic, alien, or rebel could possibly hope to defeat. The Iron Shield Tactical Squad perfectly exemplifies this second concept. They are deployed at the very front of the assault force and stubbornly advance into even the heaviest of enemy fire.

Stats: (Same as normal space marine tactical squad except with the “feel no pain” special rule)

Composition: 4 Iron Shields, 1 Iron Shield Sgt.

Wargear:
-Power Armor
-Frag/Krak Grenades
-Iron Shield (1-handed, confers a 3+ invulnerable save, counts as close combat weapon)
-Iron Bolter Carbine (1-handed: same stats as a bolt pistol except range 18)

Special Rules:
-And they shall know no fear
-Combat squads
-Iron Advance (Before shooting phase roll 1d6 for all units with this ability. If the result is 5-6 then all units with this ability may move 3 inches immediately unless they are engaged in close-combat.)

Options:
-up to five additional troops at +X per troop.
-Each member of the squad may choose to take an “Iron Spike” Shield Bomb for +X points per character. This is a one time use melee weapon that is STR 9 and AP3.
-For every five members of the squad: may exchange the Iron Bolter Carbine with an Assault Cannon Carbine ( Range 24, S5, AP4, Assault 3, Rending) For +X points.
-The Iron Shield Sgt may choose to wear Terminator Armor for +X points.

Heavy Support:

1. Iron Storm Squad:
If the Iron Shields are the defensive bulwark then the Iron Storm Marines are the legion's flaming sword. Originally formed as a matter of necessity when the primary armory on Ferrum Glaciem was destroyed: the unorthodox Iron-Storm Auto-gun has since become a staple of the Iron Knights. It may not have the elegance of the las-cannon, nor the penetrative power of the bolter, but in terms of sheer volume of firepower there are few weapons to equal it. The Iron Storm Marines have likewise learned that by directing their firepower unto a single target: no armor can withstand them for long.

Stats: (same as normal space marine tactical squad except with the "Feel no pain" special rule)
Composition: 4 Iron Storm marines, 1 Iron Storm Sgt.

Special Rules:
-And they shall know no fear
-Combat squads
-Iron Advance (Before shooting phase roll 1d6 for all units with this ability. If the result is 5-6 then all units with this ability may move 3 inches immediately unless they are engaged in close-combat.)
-The Iron Storm (before rolling to wound against a vehicle you may instead exchange 8 hits for an automatic glancing blow regardless of the vehicles armor value.)

Wargear:
-Power armor
-Frag/Krak Grenades
-Iron Storm auto-gun (36”, S4, AP4, Heavy 3)

Options:
-May Include up to 5 additional Iron Storm Marines at a cost of X per model.
-May equip the entire unit with Terminator armor at a cost of +X per model. If equipped in this fashion they gain the “Slow and purposeful” special rule.


2. “Spear-Point Drop-Pod”
During the battle of Ferrum Glaciem the Iron Lord battle barges in orbit defeated the Tyranid forces far quicker than the ground assault was resolved. Nearly the entire chapter was already deployed on the ground, and due to the chaotic nature of the battlefield the ships could not continue their orbital bombardment as planned. These ships still maintained a full compliment of Drop-Pods, however, and so the tech-marines of the Iron Knights quickly got to work rigging the pods to serve as stationary gun platforms for the various initiates and support staff still on-board. It was a dangerous plan, and nearly fifty percent of the drop-pods deployed in this manner were destroyed, but not before they provided a crucial disruption of enemy lines and allowed the ground forces to re-organize and advance. Now the “Spear Point” variant of Drop-Pods are typically deployed as stationary gun platforms on battlefields around the Imperium.

Stats: Same as normal drop pod except for BS 3, and 4HP.

Wargear: x2 twin-linked heavy bolters.

Special Rules:
-Drop pod Assault
-Immobile
-Inertial Guidance System

Transport Capacity: none

Options:
-May add an additional x2 twin linked heavy bolters at a cost of +X
-May add extra armor plating at a cost of +X

Yikes...man, I don't want to sugarcoat things for you, but I'm seeing a lot of balance and power problems here even without getting into the points costs. I'll go into details as I see them:

Gunslinger Tech Marine - So potential for infinitely chaining AP2 shots? No. Why is a bolt pistol on the same level as a meltagun? This is ridiculously overpowered.

Iron Shield Tactical Squad - Inexplicably T5, free 3+ invul, bolters that are infinitely better than normal bolters, and a free movement for no reason? And access to S9 melee weapons too, because these guys are just perfect at everything.

Iron Storm Squad - The free T5 I don't understand. The rule with their guns is actually not bad. But this is a case where I think the unit as a whole is pretty useless. I'd re-evaluate their role.

Spear-Point Drop Pod - Do yo not see any reason why dropping pairs of lascannons with no scatter and giving an opponent no answer to it might be bad?

Could you perhaps think of some interesting and appropriate revisions then? :-)

That's essentially what I'm looking for here. Similar theme ect (and keeping the "powerful but point heavy" idea of course)

Oh yeah: and point costs. I'm totally lost on point costs!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oh the Toughness 5 is for having bulked up armour. Basically I wanted "tougher" marines, but not, you know, in terminator armour! :-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

So some revision ideas then:

for the Iron Shields, why not remove the rapid-fire part from their bolter carbines, thus they have shorter range, greatly enhanced survivability and less firepower in total.

for the Gunslinger: I'm thinking just remove the special rule or maybe tone it down to no more than 1 or 2 a turn?

for the drop-pod: maybe turn it into just one twin linked las-cannon? That way it is still good but can be dealt with better. Or maybe add Scatter?

What do you think?

Also: what exactly is wrong with the Iron Storm unit? They have a nice long range, can really dish out a ton of attacks. If you like rolling dice, well, there you go! They aren't the best at killing heavy inf, but against orks or tanks they actually seem pretty nice....any suggestions there?

If you want tougher marines, I'd look along the lines of some form of Feel No Pain. The issue with amping up Toughness is that it makes them exponentially harder to kill, and it hurts options against them way more. Feel No Pain gives them resilience, but it is not at the cost of making it just near-impossible to put a wound on them.

Anyway, I can try to give some suggestions, sure.

The Techmarine I don't really understand. They are not really gunfighters, and they wouldn't use their servo-harness for guns, they'd use it for their job. It is a bit of conflicting logic to send your elite tech/mechanic guys out with dual pistols to wreck stuff. I'd drop this altogether and replace it with a Captain/Chapter Master equivalent that has options for dual pistols, perhaps one revolver as an expensive individual relic, while other pistol weapons (plasma, bolt, inferno) are more accessible.

The tac squad is one of those things that screams "we are just better at everything because reasons." Throwing out 3++ saves like candy is really not a good way to put it, because, combined with their already intense Toughness means that nobody has an answer for them. A rule of thumb is to keep them close to regular tactical marines, they do not change much between Chapters.

The heavy weapon squad is just...weird to me. Apart from the free glances their guns are absolutely terrible, and fits no real combat role. I'd ask yourself what you want them to do first, then work around that. Again, don't give in to a temptation to make them wildy divergent from normal Marines. Chapters are very similar, and the differences should be minor, like a weapon or Chapter Tactic. It doesn't make sense that this seemingly loyalist chapter that values adaptability would not have and use all of the normal Imperium weapons.

The drop pods, these need to go back to the drawing board. Right now you have them better armed, better armored and with no reduction in carrying capacity to normal pods. I could buy a few of them and have 6-8 lascannons behind all of my opponent's vehicles and he has absolutely zero way to stop them. That's not a good thing.

First: thanks for the help :-)

However the drop pods are actually not even transporters anymore, their capacity is none (what with the combat crews inside) and they are also a heavy support slot.

I like the feel-no-pain rule instead of the T5 so I will probably just change that to them.

I was also thinking of changing the gunslinger tech marines to just "Gunslingers" and have the fluff simply state they USED to be tech-marines. That way we can still have techmarines for their repairing ect, and these for just added firepower/awesome.

What do you think would be a good change to the Iron Storm guns? I was thinking maybe just upping their AP to a 5? Maybe even 4?

I also have been playing around with the idea of having them be a "former" space marine chapter (changing the name obviously,) that has "gone rogue" to account for their different armor/weapons/tactics. Not quite corrupted by chaos, but not really official imperium folks either :-)

Unfortunately, that is still a problem because of the way drop pods work. There is still pretty much no way to counter their deployment, and because they are drop pods, it's very hard for scatter to matter. Also, since they are AV12 and 4hp, they are very difficult to kill unlike say a suicide melta squad. Think of yourself on the receiving end of drop pods that have protections vs mishap and can precisely hit your rear armor. Not a very good thing.

As far as FNP, look at the Iron Hands, their chapter tactic is an army-wide 6+ FNP, you should start there. And their fluff is that Iron Hands can take serious punishment. If you want more than that, you'll need some seriously good explanation.

Fluff-wise, you don't stop being a techmarine. Becoming one is pretty much indoctrination into the Cult of Mars, and it isn't something you just stop when you're bored. Techmarines are a massively valuable resource, they would not be put into risk like that.

Frankly, the guns sound like junker guns they scavenged. But it doesn't fit. I'd keep them as conventional Devastator squads and give the "exchange 8 hits for a glance" rule to encourage the use of high ROF weapons like heavy bolters instead.

Hmmm...maybe just get rid of the lascannons for the drop pods then, cause yeah the idea to be able to just pop all your armour stuff in the rear isn't fun. Maybe replace them with just more hurricane bolters? Or just trade out both the hurricane and lascannon for two sets of twin linked heavy bolters. Heck: that would practically make them the heavy-bolter turrets from Dawn of War 1!

Fluff wise: the gunslingers were only supposed to be "temporary" tech marines, and this is sorta the chapters way of finding a use for them after the crusade ended and they were able to get new tech-marines. I was even toying with the idea of just having them be a type of servitor that the tech marines could take instead (with some rule about being mostly brainless.)

Similarly: you are spot on about the "junker" guns that they scavenged...but I also liked the idea of them actually making said weapons really work (kinda like adapting the ork idea of "more dakka!").

Probably the easiest method would be to just give them the same stats as the heavy bolters and keep the special rule. Then cost the whole unit as devastators with heavy bolters (that are totally different from heavy bolters, cause as you said REASONS!)

Now as far as chapter wide special rules go: do you think a 5-6 feel no pain is substantially better than a 6 feel no pain? If you think it would be game breaking then I will probably just go with the 6 one (and have them basically be the same as Iron Hands, which they already resemble anyway.)




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay went ahead and made the changes suggested :-)

I upped the stats on the Iron Storm Autogun to make it only slightly worse than a heavy bolter, which I think is more than evened out by the lack of other options and the fact that everyone in the squad can take them :-)

I also changed the drop pods to just having two twin linked heavy bolters. Also goes with the "shooty" theme I think!

Thanks for your help Curran! what do you think now?

The more I hear, the more I'd agree with you to make them some Iron Hands birthed chapter. That is a good way to go, because you have some set Chapter Tactics, and a nice balanced and working foundation to go off of.

As far as the pods, there is something actually that exists close to what you want. Look up Deathstorm Drop Pods. They are unmanned pods that are packed with either assault cannons or a big missile launcher type thing: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Support/DEATHSTORM-DROP-POD-WITH-MISSILE-LAUNCHERS.html

As far as the whole "temporary tech marines" again...sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's not really in tune with fluff. All Space Marines know how to maintain their gear, but those who show aptitude get sent to Mars for further training into a Techmarine. There'd be no opportunity for them to be in-between and somehow with their chapter as well, certainly not in any way to be a specialized gunslinger unit. That said, Forge World and the Horus Heresy rules can come to you raid here as well, as the 30k game has Legion Destroyers, http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/Space_Marine_Legion_Army_List/LEGION_ELITES/Legion_Destroyer_Squad/LEGION_MK_IV_DESTROYER_SQUAD.html which are units of Marines with dual pistols. I'd look those up.