Which traitor Primarch was the worst general?

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**Shidank**

Angron is what he is. He is very likely the most worthless Primarch. Ascension only saved him from death. Yes we can blame the nails for his suckage. Ascension may have given him a bit of tactical acumen back, but he will always be who he is.

**Shidank**

ImAGeek wrote:
dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Angrin was and is a great general, he was know for the primarch who's legion and him are sent to kill. everything. Angryon know what his legion can do and does it if they can accomplish kill kill kill the bat then let em kill kill kill. And without the butchers nails he is a genius, but still he is a Berzerker because of him being a Daemon Prince of. Khorne which basically is a Berzerker daemon prince.

Again. You don't need to be a good general to massacre planets when you have a legion of 150000 Space Marines perfectly willing to kill anything in their path. The fact that that was the only battle plan they ever used is a big part of why he isn't a good general, and he didn't even lead them or coordinate them, he landed and just rushed off leaving his legion behind. Kharn and Lortara do most of the coordination of the WE.

This is why boatloads of World Eaters died everywhere they went that had sufficient force to fight back. Sure, Angron won...but the point of Space Marine legions is that there's nothing out there that can beat them.

**Shidank**

ImAGeek wrote:
e.earnshaw wrote:
Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.

He really isn't a smug arrogant whatever. He's always come across rather humble from what I've read. And there's a seperate thread for worst loyalist Primarch.

This is the image cultivated by GW before Unremembered Empire. I hated the smurfs like everyone else until I read that book. One line got me more than the rest where a legionnaire comes up to Guilliman and the primarch says his armor is too shiny and that he's trying too hard, to which the marine replies, "But we're Ultramarines. We're supposed to try harder."

Right in the damn feels.

**Shidank**

Damn right Pert was a good general.

He just hated constantly having to destroy things and build nothing but fortresses.

**Shidank**

Angel Exterminatus painted him in a great light. It did for him what Unremembered Empire did for Guilliman.

For me, anyway.

**Shidank**

Khonsu wrote:
Wow the people who actually chose Pert as the worst general, FYI he strategized for other Primarchs, Especially inept ones such as Russ.

You spelled Curze wrong.

**Shidank**

godking wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
e.earnshaw wrote:
Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.

He really isn't a smug arrogant whatever. He's always come across rather humble from what I've read. And there's a seperate thread for worst loyalist Primarch.
Guilliman is a humblebrag who's ''humility'' has always come of as false to me.

He is no less arrogant then his brothers but is more adept at hiding it most of the time.

Guilliman is a guy who will never openly and directly brag about his achievements but will make sure that you know about them.

You should read Unremembered Empire. His character came off as much more 'Captain Try-Hard' than 'General Did-A-Good-Job'

**Shidank**

Are you saying that in response to my post or the one where they claim Guilliman is a humblebrag?

You're agreeing with me, so I'll assume that was to humblebrag.

**Shidank**

ChazSexington wrote:
j31c3n wrote:

ChazSexington wrote:
Angron could be distracted by a laser pointer, so most Guardsmen could deal with him.

If that's true, why didn't he die before the Heresy? If Angron was seriously that stupid, he wouldn't have survived.

It's a joke and not meant to be taken literally, thus the unreasonable comparison of Angron and a cat.

I am enjoying how there's not a single vote for Alpharius here!

A surprising point given how prone he was to overcomplication lol

**Shidank**

Alpharius: So good, he could outplay himself.

**Shidank**

Khonsu wrote:
Shidank wrote:
Khonsu wrote:
Wow the people who actually chose Pert as the worst general, FYI he strategized for other Primarchs, Especially inept ones such as Russ.

You spelled Curze wrong.

Instead of Pert?

Lol instead of Russ

**Shidank**

Shadowclaimer wrote:
Where's the Lion El Johnson option?

Oh, kitty's got claws. =P

The Lion wasn't SO bad...

**Shidank**

One of the best out of all the Primarchs, actually.

**Shidank**

It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.

**Shidank**

Khonsu wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
Curze is a bad general yes.

Russ and the Wolves were attacking a Legion who were both dug in and on their home turf, and were also incredibly potent psykers which is a pretty big equaliser. Even with the Custodes and SoS, they were at quite a disadvantage. Also, the Thousand Sons weren't the smallest legion. The Raven Guard were the smalles legion at 80,000 so the Thousand Sons are still a pretty damn big force. Russ did pretty okay in that situation.

I'd recheck, The Thousand Sons were 10,000 Marines at their prime, Besides they weren't dug in comparatively speaking, They had no Orbital Defences and Prospero was basically neglected defence-wise.
Saying the Wolves were at a disadvantage is preposterous at best, Do not exaggerate.

Russ did bad, SoS AND CUSTODES ON HIS SIDE!!!
you know what Custodes are and how powerful they are?
Do you know SoS basically counter psychic powers, The Sons' entire shtick?
Besides having the flesh change transform many of their marines into Spawn...

Angron has the nails as his excuse, Besides showing himself to be intelligent when he managed to suppress them, What is Russ' excuse?

And How is Curze a bad general?
I seriously want examples.

I guess I could counter by asking for examples of tactical acumen that makes him stand out when compared to other legions. For the most part, his most difficult campaigns seem to have been fought alongside other legions who ended up calling him a dirtbag.

**Shidank**

Otto Weston wrote:
ImAGeek wrote:
I get that. But all I was saying is that Russ didn't exactly do a bad job at Prospero. Russ isn't a bad general at all, and Prospero isn't really an example of him as a bad general anyway even if he was.

I mean you just said so yourself, the TS were being slaughtered... So he can't have been doing that bad a job.

There are many factors towards that though -
1. Russ had the numerical advantage in Astartes alone.
2. Russ had some Custodes on his side (we don't know the true value of this factor, probably minimal though)
3. Russ had the sisters of silence on his side (they played a significant part, allowing the wolves to close distance and get into assault before the 1ksons realized they were there and then dealt with them)
4. Everything except the capital had been destroyed by bombardment because their defences were down. Only the Kine shield (not controlled by Magnus) was still up, keeping the capital safe. We don't know how many 1ksons were lost across the globe in the bombardment (they weren't all concentrated in the capital).
5. Prospero's defences had been designed to prevent an enemy from ever landing, not dealing with an enemy once they had landed. The fact those defences were down allowed the wolves to simply fly past the heaviest line of defence.
6. Russ had total surprise. For the majority of the 1ksons, the first thing they knew about the attack was the orbital bombardment which was followed only moments later by transports filled with wolves.

Russ had EVERYTHING going for him and yet still his Legion was dealt a severe blow, which speaks volumes for the Sorcerers of Prospoer. If Magnus hadn't taken down Prospero's defences and had instead prepared his forces for the assault, I doubt Russ would have even made planetfall.

Also, doing a little research. The 1ksons lost 90% of their Legion during the Burning of Prospero (according to Lexicanum) and there were 1242 survivors, meaning that according to canon, there were only 12,000 odd Thousand Sons on prospero when the Wolves fell on them. Yeah, looking further, the 1ksons were stated to have around 10k (source - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion).

I can see where you're coming from. On paper, this does look bad for Russ. To the more realistic of us who know the Space Wolves are better than we give them credit for, this really speaks more to the power of the Thousand Sons. The shield that saved Tizca is the only reason the Wolves even came down. It was a concentrated ball of Thousand Son power.

Tough nut to crack, wouldn't you agree?

***Added
I also believe I've read numbers along the lines of what you're reporting before. I think that misfortune and mutation did limit the numbers of the Thousand Sons severely.

**Shidank**

Angron: The diggingest Primarch

I actually thought this scene was of particular import for showing us how far off Angron was. A Space Marine can orient themselves with relative ease, so how hard should it be for a Primarch?

**Shidank**

I think that a quick kill is preferred when dealing with space wizards, don't you?

**Shidank**

Zaki66 wrote:
Shidank wrote:
It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.

Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.

It comes from his disingenuous nature. The fact he made others uncomfortable. He never really left the forests of Caliban.

The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?

**Shidank**

Wyzilla wrote:
Shidank wrote:
Zaki66 wrote:
Shidank wrote:
It's insanely easy to dislike the Lion. Still, I have to give the giant D-bag major props on his skills.

Just curious, how can people dislike Lion? Even though he is mysterious and unknown half the time, I thought he was the runner-up for the Warmaster's position right after Sanguinious.

It comes from his disingenuous nature. The fact he made others uncomfortable. He never really left the forests of Caliban.

The gods wanted him but had nothing, nothing at all, to offer him. How can anyone actually like a man who literally wants nothing?

Who cannot like a Crusader who wages war out of idealism and principle in place of materialism and lust for power?

Almost anyone who would have to deal with him in person.

Next question!

**Shidank**

We derailed somewhere. Who said the Lion was going to kill you?

**Shidank**

No, the negative to meeting him in person would be his uncanny ability to make everyone super uncomfortable.

**Shidank**

You have to be willing to accept all depictions as the same character viewed through a multitude of eyes. Just because it may seem different, the close quarters writing of the HH books come together to form a portrait of the Primarch wherein you should look to all sources equally.

The Lion was not friendly. He was pragmatic. He just tried harder than Pert to be likeable. That, in turn, made him seem even more inhuman. He was one of the single most uncomfortable Primarchs of all, and that includes Angron.

This, perhaps more than anything, is why I chose him as the most powerful Primarch. He doesn't worry half as often about the petty crap his brothers might. He is one of the most brilliant, if not THE most brilliant, tactician in the Imperium and has a Legion regarded by most as suicide to engage one on one. He is brutally effective, capable of miming even the most advanced etiquette rules, and has a penchant for writing down which facial expressions match which emotions.

**Shidank**

I thought Konrad nearly killed Dorn, not the Lion?

The Lion nearly killed Curze multiple times in Unremembered Empire but the Haunter's precognition kept saving him.

**Shidank**

Pert was honestly my favorite military leader. I consider him and the Lion to be similar, but Pert doesn't have the air of "Yeah, hate me. Whatever. I don't have people feels."

Alpharius may have been convoluted, but did that make him an ineffective commander? Discuss

**Shidank**

Lord Blackscale wrote:
Shidank wrote:
I thought Konrad nearly killed Dorn, not the Lion?

The Lion nearly killed Curze multiple times in Unremembered Empire but the Haunter's precognition kept saving him.

During the Thramas Crusade, Kurze met with Lion in a sort of parley, and when Kurze slandered Lion fighting broke out. Kurze had nearly strangled the life out of the Lion when a Dark Angels honor guard stabbed him through the back with a sword. Later on Lion came out ahead in multiple fights. Before that he made Corax run for his life. The "fight" with Dorn was one sided. Kurze cut him open and stood above him as he bled before being pulled away. All because Dorn was angry Curze would dare speak against the Emps.

I'd probably like reading this and seeing if it still plays with the way they're reversing some of their HH fluff.

**Shidank**

Still, a fine story to read

**Shidank**

ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah definitely, just not if you're specifically after the Night Lords vs the Dark Angels that'll be in a later book.

I literally can't wait. I expect to die any moment.

**Shidank**

In a semi-erotic way, I need to read these bookly treasures.

**Shidank**

Honestly, I consider Curze to be a bad general on principle simply because he just lays out a very basic plan and lets his soldiers run wild with it however they like. This just reflects poorly on a military commander, coma or nay.

After all the posts I've seen on SB being the book to define current thoughts on the Alpha Legion, I'm both excited and wary to pick it up. The latest round of HH books seemed to be slipping from that regal air of the first run into the cheap product that 40k novels became. I'm hoping that's just a feeling, but if they start reneging on the original ideas that made the first stages of the HH so interesting, I'll be pretty disappointed.

The point of writing out the HH to me was both to show us what actually happened and for something more than what we already knew to happen. The rate they're going will leave the surprise as something that didn't actually matter. I'm still hopeful, however.

Dan Abnett protects.