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So based off the loyalist version of this thread, which traitor Primarch do you think was the worst general? I think it has to be Angron. As soon as the nails took over he just rushed ahead of his legion, and half the time didn't even know where he was (he burrowed himself into the ground in Betrayer because he went that crazy). He's a good fighter but in terms of leading a legion...well he doesn't.

What do you guys think?

Didn't he get buried rather than do his finest impression of a mole?

But yeah, Angron, for why you say. Not necessarily due to his mole antics though.

He was trapped under some rubble but didn't know where he was and was digging his way down rather than up, until the remaining Librarians did their thing and snapped him out of it. He was almost dead, his weapons were ruined, his fingers were like down to the bone from digging.

Well, both Magnus and Curze basically laid back and said "go ahead, Loyalist, I don't mind at all if you kill me."

Mortarion's primary strategic idea was "I have extra dudes."

Alpharius enjoyed making battle harder than necessary.

Fulgrim managed t get possessed by a sword and turned into a painting or something, I'm still not really sure what was going on there, but he was the only Traitor to have so many ... complications.

Horus gambled big and lost hard, completely underestimating the Loyalists and his father.

And neither Lorgar or Perturabo even liked being generals.

But everyone's going to pick Angron. Not because he was ineffective, but because people think he was a crazed berserker.

(As in the other thread, there is no "worst general," except by flawed standards of measurement, such as "total number of compliances" during the Crusade. That standard, by the way, would make Alpharius the worst, which is completely absurd.)

 ImAGeek wrote:
He was trapped under some rubble but didn't know where he was and was digging his way down rather than up, until the remaining Librarians did their thing and snapped him out of it. He was almost dead, his weapons were ruined, his fingers were like down to the bone from digging.

Yeah, but he didn't intentionally dig himself a hole, he got trapped first then dug himself in further. He didn't just start digging a hole mid fight

Angron was a crazed berserker. There's no 'people think..' About it, he literally was. I mean it wasn't his fault, it was down to the nails, but that doesn't change the fact that that is what he was.


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 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
He was trapped under some rubble but didn't know where he was and was digging his way down rather than up, until the remaining Librarians did their thing and snapped him out of it. He was almost dead, his weapons were ruined, his fingers were like down to the bone from digging.

Yeah, but he didn't intentionally dig himself a hole, he got trapped first then dug himself in further. He didn't just start digging a hole mid fight

Well I didn't mean that but I can see how it can be read that way, but it doesn't change my point. He did still burrow his way into the ground because he'd lost his mind that much, someone that crazed is in no way a general, let alone a good one.

Wasn't Angry Ron the mastermind behind the first war for Armageddon?

Magnus.

Because at least Angron was a known berserker, and did things befitting a crazed berserker. Magnus was supposed to be an intelligent sorcerer, with vasts amounts of knowledge and years of studying. Yet when he was told that no psyker activity was to take place, he still sends a message using the warp. Then he pretty much gives up to the wolves. I mean if you are that smart, figure something out. Show some ingenuity or creativity to save your people. Instead he screws his people over and then fails to lead them.

Ah that was Daemon Angron though, who strangely might have more sense than pre ascension Angron...

 ImAGeek wrote:

Well I didn't mean that but I can see how it can be read that way, but it doesn't change my point. He did still burrow his way into the ground because he'd lost his mind that much, someone that crazed is in no way a general, let alone a good one.

He forgot the spit test

 ImAGeek wrote:
Ah that was Daemon Angron though, who strangely might have more sense than pre ascension Angron...

That's true, as the Nails aren't messing with his brain anymore in the same way.

 Icculus wrote:
Magnus.

Because at least Angron was a known berserker, and did things befitting a crazed berserker. Magnus was supposed to be an intelligent sorcerer, with vasts amounts of knowledge and years of studying. Yet when he was told that no psyker activity was to take place, he still sends a message using the warp. Then he pretty much gives up to the wolves. I mean if you are that smart, figure something out. Show some ingenuity or creativity to save your people. Instead he screws his people over and then fails to lead them.

He didn't really have a choice but to send a message using the Warp. He was trying to warn the Emperor about Horus' betrayal, and that was the only way he could do so in time. He did happen to mess up the Emperors webway experiment but his reasons for using the warp were sound. He gives up on the Wolves because of his guilt and he feels like he deserves his punishment, not because he's a bad general.

Didn't the ascended Angron just charge towards the enemy in the Armegeddon war, like he always does?

Lorgar. He didn't care for war or being a general

 Redcruisair wrote:
Didn't the ascended Angron just charge towards the enemy in the Armegeddon war, like he always does?

I imagine so. I don't actually know much about 40k fluff but I can't imagine Daemon Angron had anymore tactical sense than mortal Angron. But he did plan the Armageddon thing, although I'm sure he planned stuff in 30k too, just his plan always was 'lets just rush 'em'. And youndont need to be a general to plan that


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 Great White wrote:
Lorgar. He didn't care for war or being a general

Lorgar before he was rebuked didn't want to be a general, but after they were rebuked at Monarchia, the Word Bearers actually started to catch up with the other Primarchs in terms of compliances in the 50 years between then and the heresy. I think when he put his mind to it he was as good and the others, it just wasn't what he wanted to be doing.

Looking at Istvaan III and the stunt Angron pulled which most certainly ended up dragging the conflict into the long drawn out battle it ended up being, plus his renowned nature of just diving into the fight for the sake of a fight...

Angron definitely. A giant pain in Horus's neck that Horus just had to put up with. Almost certainly more attributed to the Butcher Nails more than anything but Angron for certain.

If Angron hadn't gotten the Butcher Nails or somehow overcame them (outside of daemonic ascension), I think I would have chosen Lorgar judging from what I've heard about "Know No Fear"

 ImAGeek wrote:
Angron was a crazed berserker. There's no 'people think..' About it, he literally was. I mean it wasn't his fault, it was down to the nails, but that doesn't change the fact that that is what he was.

Yes, but that doesn't make him foolhardy or stupid or reduce his ability to think or make him a "bad general."

He achieved compliances just like everyone else did. It wasn't like he sent his dudes down to the world and they all just died or something.

 j31c3n wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Angron was a crazed berserker. There's no 'people think..' About it, he literally was. I mean it wasn't his fault, it was down to the nails, but that doesn't change the fact that that is what he was.

Yes, but that doesn't make him foolhardy or stupid or reduce his ability to think or make him a "bad general."

He achieved compliances just like everyone else did. It wasn't like he sent his dudes down to the world and they all just died or something.

Angron definitely is a bad general. He's basically not a general, he's just another World Eater. He didn't lead his legion. Their strategies were never any different. They achieved compliances because massacring planets isn't hard when you have a legion of beserkers. They never achieved peaceful compliances, or just fought until the other side gave in. In Betrayal there's a battle where they actually continued killing Imperial Army guys when they'd ran out of enemies. Achieving compliances the way Angron and his legion did do not require a good general to do. It was all they were good at, all Angron was good at. Massacres.

 j31c3n wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Angron was a crazed berserker. There's no 'people think..' About it, he literally was. I mean it wasn't his fault, it was down to the nails, but that doesn't change the fact that that is what he was.

Yes, but that doesn't make him foolhardy or stupid or reduce his ability to think or make him a "bad general."

He achieved compliances just like everyone else did. It wasn't like he sent his dudes down to the world and they all just died or something.

Eradicated populations doesn't really equate to compliances does it

If it was so easy to overtake a world with a tide of berserkers though, why didn't every legion do that? Surely that's a lot less mental effort than coming up with all these crazy tactics like Alpharius or Guilliman.

Because you don't want every world to just be wiped out. Most worlds you want to bring in peacefully or with minimal fighting, because the aim of the crusade is to unite humanity, not wipe it out.

Also, Angrons methods probably resulted in a lot of dead World Eaters so it's hardly efficient.

 j31c3n wrote:
If it was so easy to overtake a world with a tide of berserkers though, why didn't every legion do that? Surely that's a lot less mental effort than coming up with all these crazy tactics like Alpharius or Guilliman.

Because you might want some people alive to actually bring into the Imperium

Angron seems like a walking Exterminatus to me. I'd consider that to be the pinnacle of battlefield effectiveness.

 j31c3n wrote:
Angron seems like a walking Exterminatus to me. I'd consider that to be the pinnacle of battlefield effectiveness.

Angron vs an Exterminatus, hmm, who would win

Angron could be distracted by a laser pointer, so most Guardsmen could deal with him.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
Angron seems like a walking Exterminatus to me. I'd consider that to be the pinnacle of battlefield effectiveness.

Angron vs an Exterminatus, hmm, who would win

Well, Angron is the Exterminatus. Why would he fight himself?

 ChazSexington wrote:
Angron could be distracted by a laser pointer, so most Guardsmen could deal with him.

If that's true, why didn't he die before the Heresy? If Angron was seriously that stupid, he wouldn't have survived.

 j31c3n wrote:
Angron seems like a walking Exterminatus to me. I'd consider that to be the pinnacle of battlefield effectiveness.

Not neccesarily. It depenDS what you want from a battle. Also, I wouldn't say an Exterminatus is a good general either...

Also I think the reason he survived, especially towards the end, was partly due to Lorgar looking out for him. He was gonna die soon anyway because of the Nails, then Lorgar got him turned into a daemon during the Shadow Crusade. He was much harder to kill after that. He isn't stupid by any means, he just isnt a good general. He's a good warrior, a good brawler, but not a general or leader.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
Angron seems like a walking Exterminatus to me. I'd consider that to be the pinnacle of battlefield effectiveness.

Angron vs an Exterminatus, hmm, who would win

Exterminatus, just look at Istvaan III. an Exterminatus accomplished in a moment that which Angron could not accomplish in months

I think the HH novels overstate the case regarding Angron and the XIIth. They wouldn't have been a functioning legion or effective military force if they were *only* a bunch of crazed berserkers. Plus, those novels also feature Angron at his worst, with the nails dug in so deep that they're about to kill him.

FW's HH books paint a slightly different picture, explaining how the World Eaters incorporated their love of close assault into their tactics. Betrayal explains how they'd typically use an extremely aggressive first wave attack to keep the enemy occupied (and presumably create a bloody, messy brawl), allowing a second wave of armor and other heavy units to come in, hunt hard targets and clean up.

Sure, it's potentially very bloody. But at its core that basic hammer-and-anvil approach isn't fundamentally different than the tactics used by Alexander's Macedonians -- i.e., using phalanxes to pin enemy units and create gaps for cavalry units to run through and go headhunting. Later, Guderian applied the same basic concepts to armored warfare.

Clearly things went FAR south for them as both Angron's nails and the legionaries' nails dug deeper.

"General" is not just another word for commander. Angron clearly inspired the World Eaters to stupendous feats of carnage and I don't doubt his ability as a leader on the fieldbut I have to wonder: who coordinated his fleets? who provided for his supply lines? Who crafted the strategy by which his legion acted? Keep in mind that Angron could not even overcome the warlords of Nuceria.

Lorgar and Magnus may have had less taste for war than their brothers but they were more than competent even considering a lack of interest.

Lorgar was self-admittedly the worst, though Angron gives him a run for his money with the utterly ridiculous tactics the World Eaters use.

But then again, the World Eaters are the Orks of Space Marines. Just not as funny.