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Honestly, saying what Curze did worked is like saying that you're a great general for never losing a soldier when all you do is Exterminatus every planet you find.

Curze was a one-trick pony.

 Shidank wrote:
Honestly, saying what Curze did worked is like saying that you're a great general for never losing a soldier when all you do is Exterminatus every planet you find.

Curze was a one-trick pony.

Like Angron.

I love the Night Lords, but Curze was not a good general. And his whole fear philosophy was just flawed. His planet was peaceful but the second he left it it reverted to the hellhole it was before, hence why it poisoned his legion with rapists and murderers. He didn't care about his legion, hated most of them in fact, had little control over them, and if he did lose less men than the others (is there a source for that btw?) it's because the Night Lords tended to 'tactically retreat' more than other legions haha.

I don't know about Curze to comment on his abilities in other depictions but I just wanted to add that (Prince of Crows spoilers):

Did we really read the same story?

 ImAGeek wrote:
[Like Angron.

I love the Night Lords, but Curze was not a good general. And his whole fear philosophy was just flawed. His planet was peaceful but the second he left it it reverted to the hellhole it was before, hence why it poisoned his legion with rapists and murderers. He didn't care about his legion, hated most of them in fact, had little control over them, and if he did lose less men than the others (is there a source for that btw?) it's because the Night Lords tended to 'tactically retreat' more than other legions haha.

Exactly. Sevatar does a lot more to hold the legion together than Curze does and what you said is pretty much what he says in Prince of Crows, even down to the frequent "tactical retreats."

There aren't really depictions of Curze as a general apart from PoC and like you say it doesn't exactly paint him in a good light as one haha.

Sevatar is for the Night Lords what Kharn is for the World Eaters I think. Basically the generals of their respective legions.

 ImAGeek wrote:
There aren't really depictions of Curze as a general apart from PoC and like you say it doesn't exactly paint him in a good light as one haha.

Yea but it does make the Night Lords very likeable because of their black humour and cynicism

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
There aren't really depictions of Curze as a general apart from PoC and like you say it doesn't exactly paint him in a good light as one haha.

Yea but it does make the Night Lords very likeable because of their black humour and cynicism

Definitely. I love the Night Lords. And Sev is the most sarcastic bastard ever haha.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Definitely. I love the Night Lords. And Sev is the most sarcastic bastard ever haha.

Somehow he turns their flaws into virtues

 ImAGeek wrote:
There aren't really depictions of Curze as a general apart from PoC and like you say it doesn't exactly paint him in a good light as one haha.

Sevatar is for the Night Lords what Kharn is for the World Eaters I think. Basically the generals of their respective legions.

I think this is the single best way to sum up what I've heard of Sevatar and actually helped me envision the character!

Let me stat that first I have not yet read PoC. I just meant that he recognized that his legion was already conqouring worlds without much problem so he didn't try to fix what wasn't broke. As for losing less men, I cannot point out a source. I was speaking more to his legions hit and run/terror tactics losing less men than say Angron's "everybody just charge at them" tactic. Of course towards the end any sence of tatics and reason seems to have pretty much left him and he just wanted to kill Lion-o. Pronce of Crows is on my short list of "to read" though. In the long run I will bow to the wisdom of more informed Night Lords fans out there. BTW, Imageek, am I mistaken or is that a Night Lord in your Avatar"?

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Let me stat that first I have not yet read PoC. I just meant that he recognized that his legion was already conqouring worlds without much problem so he didn't try to fix what wasn't broke. As for losing less men, I cannot point out a source. I was speaking more to his legions hit and run/terror tactics losing less men than say Angron's "everybody just charge at them" tactic. Of course towards the end any sence of tatics and reason seems to have pretty much left him and he just wanted to kill Lion-o. Pronce of Crows is on my short list of "to read" though. In the long run I will bow to the wisdom of more informed Night Lords fans out there. BTW, Imageek, am I mistaken or is that a Night Lord in your Avatar"?

Yeah it's one from Massacre

Cuize simply because he basically said kill me to an assassin

 The red knight of Khorne wrote:
Cuize simply because he basically said kill me to an assassin

That wasn't really anything to do with generalship skills though...

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


You mean while the ship was being invaded by Daemons and Nemiel's suggestion was to simply slug it out instead of the Librarians obliterating the daemons and closing the portals? While the reaction is still extreme, Nemiel's suggestion was akin to telling a Platoon of Marines that shooting people is against the law, and therefore they should engage in a bayonet charge.

That justifies decapitating him for talking back? And having a sadistic grin while doing so?

Please, you can't spin that scene in a way which makes the Lion look like anything but an unstable sociopath. Which is what he is. A sociopath who just happens to be on the loyalist's side. Easily the most morally bankrupt loyalist, if not the most insane (that would be Dorn).

We're talking about war, not hugs and kittens here. Was he a bad commander and strategist? NO, he was the best. Did he fight poorly, NO. Then why do people vote for him to be THE WORST GENERAL?!



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Wait, the Lion isn't even on there!!!


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And again, how come Alpharius only has 2 votes? He likes making a war HARDER THAN USUAL!!!

Alpharius can't be the worst when Angron and Curze existed. If they didn't I could see arguments for Alpharius (although he did actually get stuff done, even if it was convoluted).

Perturabo was being utterly owned in a space battle by an Imperial Fist fleet that was a fraction of his size after ambushing them. The Fist commander was not a demi-god primarch either. And the only reason Perturabo and his fleet survived was because the Fists had to break off the engagement due to a message from Dorn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although Angron gets my vote.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Perturabo was being utterly owned in a space battle by an Imperial Fist fleet that was a fraction of his size after ambushing them. The Fist commander was not a demi-god primarch either. And the only reason Perturabo and his fleet survived was because the Fists had to break off the engagement due to a message from Dorn.


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Although Angron gets my vote.

Right, except Polux is an exceptional fleet commander, and pulled a lot of right risk unexpected moves in that fleet battle. I mean yeah the IW were beaten but barely. Perturabo is one of the better generals, and I don't think it's fair to say he isn't based on one void battle against a clearly gifted commander.

lliu wrote:
We're talking about war, not hugs and kittens here. Was he a bad commander and strategist? NO, he was the best. Did he fight poorly, NO. Then why do people vote for him to be THE WORST GENERAL?

I know one thing: I didn't vote that he was.

If you had actually read my post before giving your knee-jerk response you might know that.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Alpharius can't be the worst when Angron and Curze existed. If they didn't I could see arguments for Alpharius (although he did actually get stuff done, even if it was convoluted).

They got stuff done too.

 koooaei wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Alpharius can't be the worst when Angron and Curze existed. If they didn't I could see arguments for Alpharius (although he did actually get stuff done, even if it was convoluted).

They got stuff done too.

What I mean is, Alpharius' methods did work, they probably received less casualties than other legions with the methods they used, and they could probably overcome foes some of the other legions might have struggled with. It's not like he made things needlessly difficult and then didn't win, they still had a pretty damn good track record. Curze and Angron might have got stuff done, but Its more a case of the World Eaters and The Night Lords got stuff done, as opposed to Curze and Angron actually being good generals. I mean when you're a legion of super soldiers it's hardly difficult to scare people or massacre planets.

As far as i know, Night Lords hadn't utilised fear tactics before Kurze emerged. At least not to the extent of a legion main tactical doctrine. And this tactics saved lots of lives. Both the lives of the imperial forces - night lords and IG, and the lives of their foes - future imperial citizens and military.

People just got scared by the mere perspective of what might happen to them having heard of the Night Lords apearing in the region that they refused to fight at all. Unless they were unaware of NL reputation or plain insane. In case they weren't aware, NL did their best to make them find it out after a good show.

A sound tactical feat if you ask me. Psychological warfare at it's finest. Like in an old proverb: "The best fight is a fight that didn't take place".

They fought pretty much exactly the same before Curze, according to Massacre.

Than he did the right thing not trying to change stuff. It's allready super effective

Agreed it works, I'm not saying the Night Lords weren't effective, I mean even without the fear tactics, they were still Space Marines with all that entails, but Curze wasn't a great general I don't think. But I still like Curze, I like his character, broken as it is.

In terms of the legions pre-heresy accomplishments, the least impressive resume is probably Lorgar or Magnus. They weren't meatheads hellbent on glory, and their legions didn't really conquer a whole lot. People are pooping all over Curze and Angron in this thread, but at the end of the day their brutality conquered worlds in droves.

 SRSFACE wrote:
In terms of the legions pre-heresy accomplishments, the least impressive resume is probably Lorgar or Magnus. They weren't meatheads hellbent on glory, and their legions didn't really conquer a whole lot. People are pooping all over Curze and Angron in this thread, but at the end of the day their brutality conquered worlds in droves.

But the question isn't who had the worst record, it was who was the worst general. The World Eaters conquered many worlds despite Angron, and again, it doesn't take a good general to massacre planets when you're in charge of a legion of superhuman berserkers.

Lorgar after his censure actually was a very competent General and for the 50 years before the Heresy actually began to catch up with his brothers.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
In terms of the legions pre-heresy accomplishments, the least impressive resume is probably Lorgar or Magnus. They weren't meatheads hellbent on glory, and their legions didn't really conquer a whole lot. People are pooping all over Curze and Angron in this thread, but at the end of the day their brutality conquered worlds in droves.

But the question isn't who had the worst record, it was who was the worst general. The World Eaters conquered many worlds despite Angron, and again, it doesn't take a good general to massacre planets when you're in charge of a legion of superhuman berserkers.

But makes you think, why haven't other legions gone for such a high record either? They're pretty much super-soldiers too. Don't forget, the initial legion purpose is to conquer worlds! That could mean that Angron's actually one of the best generals as he's managed to run his legion the way they've accomplished this task effectively and fast enough. If everything's going good, why interfere? Don't break what's working.

 koooaei wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
In terms of the legions pre-heresy accomplishments, the least impressive resume is probably Lorgar or Magnus. They weren't meatheads hellbent on glory, and their legions didn't really conquer a whole lot. People are pooping all over Curze and Angron in this thread, but at the end of the day their brutality conquered worlds in droves.

But the question isn't who had the worst record, it was who was the worst general. The World Eaters conquered many worlds despite Angron, and again, it doesn't take a good general to massacre planets when you're in charge of a legion of superhuman berserkers.

But makes you think, why haven't other legions gone for such a high record either? They're pretty much super-soldiers too. Don't forget, the initial legion purpose is to conquer worlds! That could mean that Angron's actually one of the best generals as he's managed to run his legion the way they've accomplished this task effectively and fast enough. If everything's going good, why interfere? Don't break what's working.

Because that's not the only reason Angron is a bad general. He literally isn't a general. As soon as the battle starts he leaves his men in the dust and rushes forward, cutting himself off. Kharn and Lortara do all the coordination of the legion.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Agreed it works, I'm not saying the Night Lords weren't effective, I mean even without the fear tactics, they were still Space Marines with all that entails, but Curze wasn't a great general I don't think. But I still like Curze, I like his character, broken as it is.

Curze being broken is exactly why I like him. He has character that many of the others lack.

 ImAGeek wrote:


Because that's not the only reason Angron is a bad general. He literally isn't a general. As soon as the battle starts he leaves his men in the dust and rushes forward, cutting himself off. Kharn and Lortara do all the coordination of the legion.

But this is the way they function the best. They're allready bloodthirsty uncontrollable zerkers. There's no use in playing a 'good general' in front of them.

Just going to point out that in Savage Weapons the Night Lords and Dark Angels are locked in a stalemate for the Thramas Crusade; this is Curze (widely considered one of the lesser generals) against the Lion (considered a contender for Warmaster) and this stalemate only got broken because the Lion got the super warp teleport thing. Cuze is certainly insane which hampers his ability at times (PoC) but he was good enough to be on even terms with the Lion for 2 years