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 King Pariah wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:
Still can't believe Perturabo, Who is many times a better general than Alpharius the convoluted has 5 votes to Alpharius' 0.

To quote Alpharius when asked why he allowed his enemies to dig in instead of obliterating them.

"It would have been too easy."

Wasn't this in attempt to prove to Guilliman that he was indeed a comparable (if not superior) general?

From what I understand from HH3 it's just his general attitude.

 Shidank wrote:
Pert was honestly my favorite military leader. I consider him and the Lion to be similar, but Pert doesn't have the air of "Yeah, hate me. Whatever. I don't have people feels."

Alpharius may have been convoluted, but did that make him an ineffective commander? Discuss

I kinda like the Lion because he has such an Achilles' heel, at least how he's described in Descent of Angels, with Nemiel thinking that without Luther, Lion El'Jonson would've have had the man management or charisma to do what he did.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Jpogfreak886 wrote:
Before reading Betrayer, I totally would have said Angron for a lot of the reasons mentioned previously, but I feel like his rant to Guilliman and a lot of the insight we get from Kharn made him way more sympathetic and dynamic than rage-axe-man.

Fluff-wise, he may be the worst Primarch leader (because he literally resents his legion), but I totally understand why and it makes him almost one of the most sympathetic falls in my opinion (Magnus takes gold for that award).

As someone who is pretty vocal against Angron in this thread, I do like Angron, I like his character since ADB wrote him, and he is a sympathetic character and you can see why he is like he is. But he still is definitely the worst of the Primarchs in terms of skills as a general and leadership.


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 Shidank wrote:
Pert was honestly my favorite military leader. I consider him and the Lion to be similar, but Pert doesn't have the air of "Yeah, hate me. Whatever. I don't have people feels."

Alpharius may have been convoluted, but did that make him an ineffective commander? Discuss

Perturabo is one of my favourite Primarchs. I really liked him in AE. He was a very competent if pragmatic general and tactician.

I don't think Alpharius was ineffective. I think he was very effective, his methods definitely worked, they were just a very roundabout way to get to the same solution his brothers did. But I imagine his legion received fewer losses as a result of his tactics, and it would have helped against some enemies that the other legions might have had some trouble cracking. The main issue was time, it took longer generally to fight the way the AL did. But there were 18 legions and a galaxy full of enemies, I definitely think there was a place for Alpharius' tactics.

I never saw him as ineffective, but his strategies did take time.

There, I voted for Alpharius.

Reasoning: This is 40k. His job as a general is to punch things in the face really hard. When did he ever do that?

 Raxmei wrote:
There, I voted for Alpharius.

Reasoning: This is 40k. His job as a general is to punch things in the face really hard. When did he ever do that?

Arguably at the ends of both Legion and Seventh Serpent

 Wyzilla wrote:


You mean while the ship was being invaded by Daemons and Nemiel's suggestion was to simply slug it out instead of the Librarians obliterating the daemons and closing the portals? While the reaction is still extreme, Nemiel's suggestion was akin to telling a Platoon of Marines that shooting people is against the law, and therefore they should engage in a bayonet charge.

That justifies decapitating him for talking back? And having a sadistic grin while doing so?

Please, you can't spin that scene in a way which makes the Lion look like anything but an unstable sociopath. Which is what he is. A sociopath who just happens to be on the loyalist's side. Easily the most morally bankrupt loyalist, if not the most insane (that would be Dorn).


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 EngulfedObject wrote:

Might I point you to my post in the Warmaster thread? There's plenty of evidence that he was a serious contender for the title and that it wasn't just some smug delusion on his part.

Here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/638410.page#7641010

And he's not as bad as you describe if the opinions of the characters in the novels are anything to go by.

Nothing you just said contradicted my summation of his character. That he is competent enough to warrant possibly making him Warmaster doesn't change the fact that he is a spoiled manbaby who legitimately believed that being the first Primarch meant he deserved to be Warmaster.

The characters in the novels have no choice in how they perceive him. Any normal human is literally psychically compelled to like the Lion (though this mental domination is not absolute). This is an explicit gift the Emperor gave the Primarchs.

Furthermore, who cares what characters in the novels think? They aren't infallible.


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lliu wrote:
Is he such a bad general, though? We are not talking about hugs and kisses.

He is not a bad general, but that isn't what we are talking about anymore.

Off-topic? Certainly, but this topic is pretty much closed now. The answer is Angron, lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Nothing you just said contradicted my summation of his character. That he is competent enough to warrant possibly making him Warmaster doesn't change the fact that he is a spoiled manbaby who legitimately believed that being the first Primarch meant he deserved to be Warmaster.

The characters in the novels have no choice in how they perceive him. Any normal human is literally psychically compelled to like the Lion (though this mental domination is not absolute). This is an explicit gift the Emperor gave the Primarchs.

Furthermore, who cares what characters in the novels think? They aren't infallible.

Hmm my reply was both to your post as well as some of the previous posts so I might not have been clear enough. I meant that as an example of how he didn't really make everyone around him comfortable and that how crazy he's depicted (the backhanding heads off thing) depends on which author is writing him. Obviously the opinions of the characters (infallible or not) matter because they are the only ones in a position to feel uncomfortable around him. We're not in the novels after all.

The Warmaster thing was meant to show that he may have been genuinely deserving of the title, even if he was smug about it (but he had reason to be).

Well I voted Magnus the Red. As cool as he is, he lost two whole fellowships (the equivalent of companies) to orks. I mean come on.

Angron, he basically has the same plan of the Hulk except instead of "SMASH" its "CHOP HIS HEAD OFF"

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Well I voted Magnus the Red. As cool as he is, he lost two whole fellowships (the equivalent of companies) to orks. I mean come on.

Orks have nearly killed Emps + Horus once.

 koooaei wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Well I voted Magnus the Red. As cool as he is, he lost two whole fellowships (the equivalent of companies) to orks. I mean come on.

Orks have nearly killed Emps + Horus once.

Yeah. Orks back then almost seem a different breed. In both KNF and Fulgrim it mentions how tough the orks are, and how strong, how dangerous. You had super Orks that were like Primarch sized. The Emperor was almost killed by an Ork, had Horus not saved him.

The thing with orks is that they thrive on conflict. The harder you hit them - the tougher they get.

Anywayz, i'm pretty certain that if current 40k Ghaz Waaagh! ran into a single 30k legion it would be a long bloody stalemate not going into the legion's favor unless they managed to get their Elites close and personal with Ghaz Himself. And even so, don't forget, fluffwise he's almost a size of a dread and no stranger to punching face. I think that only a primarch would have an upper hand vs Ghaz 1v1.

Don't think that loosing to orks a couple times makes you look miserable. There's just so many of them. And they're cunnin' but brutal. Or brutal but cunnin'.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
Angron seems like a walking Exterminatus to me. I'd consider that to be the pinnacle of battlefield effectiveness.

Angron vs an Exterminatus, hmm, who would win

We actually had a thread about that once

But I'd have to say Angron too. Being a good general is about fulfilling your objectives using good strategy. But that requires the ability to actually set out a strategy beyond "Lets charge them until everyone is dead".

Did you know that khorne zerkers drive rhinos. Using an axe.

 Shidank wrote:
I thought Konrad nearly killed Dorn, not the Lion?

The Lion nearly killed Curze multiple times in Unremembered Empire but the Haunter's precognition kept saving him.

During the Thramas Crusade, Kurze met with Lion in a sort of parley, and when Kurze slandered Lion fighting broke out. Kurze had nearly strangled the life out of the Lion when a Dark Angels honor guard stabbed him through the back with a sword. Later on Lion came out ahead in multiple fights. Before that he made Corax run for his life. The "fight" with Dorn was one sided. Kurze cut him open and stood above him as he bled before being pulled away. All because Dorn was angry Curze would dare speak against the Emps.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
I thought Konrad nearly killed Dorn, not the Lion?

The Lion nearly killed Curze multiple times in Unremembered Empire but the Haunter's precognition kept saving him.

During the Thramas Crusade, Kurze met with Lion in a sort of parley, and when Kurze slandered Lion fighting broke out. Kurze had nearly strangled the life out of the Lion when a Dark Angels honor guard stabbed him through the back with a sword. Later on Lion came out ahead in multiple fights. Before that he made Corax run for his life. The "fight" with Dorn was one sided. Kurze cut him open and stood above him as he bled before being pulled away. All because Dorn was angry Curze would dare speak against the Emps.

I'd probably like reading this and seeing if it still plays with the way they're reversing some of their HH fluff.

I agree. I need to get the HH book with the Night Lords legion.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I agree. I need to get the HH book with the Night Lords legion.

You mean Massacre? It doesn't mention anything about the Thramus crusade. It has about the Night Lords up to the Dropsite Massacre.

Still, a fine story to read

Yeah definitely, just not if you're specifically after the Night Lords vs the Dark Angels that'll be in a later book.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah definitely, just not if you're specifically after the Night Lords vs the Dark Angels that'll be in a later book.

I literally can't wait. I expect to die any moment.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah definitely, just not if you're specifically after the Night Lords vs the Dark Angels that'll be in a later book.

I literally can't wait. I expect to die any moment.

I can't wait for all of them haha. Very excited for Tempest in May, excited for the Prospero ones, and looking forward to seeing what they do with the Blood and Dark Angels, and the White Scars.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah definitely, just not if you're specifically after the Night Lords vs the Dark Angels that'll be in a later book.

I literally can't wait. I expect to die any moment.

This!

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah definitely, just not if you're specifically after the Night Lords vs the Dark Angels that'll be in a later book.

I literally can't wait. I expect to die any moment.

This!

Me too!

*squeals*

 Shidank wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
I thought Konrad nearly killed Dorn, not the Lion?

The Lion nearly killed Curze multiple times in Unremembered Empire but the Haunter's precognition kept saving him.

During the Thramas Crusade, Kurze met with Lion in a sort of parley, and when Kurze slandered Lion fighting broke out. Kurze had nearly strangled the life out of the Lion when a Dark Angels honor guard stabbed him through the back with a sword. Later on Lion came out ahead in multiple fights. Before that he made Corax run for his life. The "fight" with Dorn was one sided. Kurze cut him open and stood above him as he bled before being pulled away. All because Dorn was angry Curze would dare speak against the Emps.

I'd probably like reading this and seeing if it still plays with the way they're reversing some of their HH fluff.

Btw, this is from Savage Weapons in the Age of Darkness anthology.

The Lion later puts Curze into a coma when he deals him 11 (!) wounds that are instantly fatal to an Astartes in Prince of Crows (it's the very first scene). Prince of Crows is actually an excellent read and Sevatar is badass but I really don't like how he depicts the Dark Angels in Savage Weapons (luckily they are all unnamed in in the novella). They're very different from their previous depictions and a lot more "knightly" in a Bretonnia in space kind of sense.

In a semi-erotic way, I need to read these bookly treasures.

Semi-erotic? Explain yourself please

He means he needs to read these wonderful stories while moaning softly to himself and going "oooh yeah" everytime one of the characters does something particularly awesome or violent.

Btw, Prince of Crows is oddly relevant to the topic of this thread. He's a pretty bad general in the story... but what can you expect after waking up from a coma?

Honestly, I consider Curze to be a bad general on principle simply because he just lays out a very basic plan and lets his soldiers run wild with it however they like. This just reflects poorly on a military commander, coma or nay.

After all the posts I've seen on SB being the book to define current thoughts on the Alpha Legion, I'm both excited and wary to pick it up. The latest round of HH books seemed to be slipping from that regal air of the first run into the cheap product that 40k novels became. I'm hoping that's just a feeling, but if they start reneging on the original ideas that made the first stages of the HH so interesting, I'll be pretty disappointed.

The point of writing out the HH to me was both to show us what actually happened and for something more than what we already knew to happen. The rate they're going will leave the surprise as something that didn't actually matter. I'm still hopeful, however.

Dan Abnett protects.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Btw, Prince of Crows is oddly relevant to the topic of this thread. He's a pretty bad general in the story... but what can you expect after waking up from a coma?

Try ask that question to Sanguinius. Right after waking up from a coma, he went on to single-handedly defeating two greater demons and leading his men from the brink of ruin to absolute victory against a large scale demon incursion.

In other words for Sanguinius it was tuesday.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Btw, Prince of Crows is oddly relevant to the topic of this thread. He's a pretty bad general in the story... but what can you expect after waking up from a coma?

Try ask that question to Sanguinius. Right after waking up from a coma, he went on to single-handedly defeating two greater demons and leading his men from the brink of ruin to absolute victory against a large scale demon incursion.

In other words for Sanguinius it was tuesday.

Well yea, Curze isn't really shown as a great general in Prince of Crows. He just lets the Kyroptera do what they want and then immediately leads a suicide attack on the DA flagship when he wakes up.

Say what you will about Curze, but what he did worked, and they lost less marines than other chapters. When your troops are the best at what they do a good general does very little micromanaging.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Say what you will about Curze, but what he did worked, and they lost less marines than other chapters. When your troops are the best at what they do a good general does very little micromanaging.

I like the Night Lords and they were quite awesome in Prince of Crows but what Curze did at the end didn't work.

Did the suicide assault take out the DA flagship? No. Did they take out the Lion? No. Did they take out the rest of the DA leadership? No. Did they lose their best warriors and most of their leadership? Yes. Don't forget, Curze was hiding alone on the DA flagship for months. Yes, incredible that he lasted that long but not so incredible that he got captured in the first place (and that's really more to do with plot armour than anything else so he could get to Macragge and flip Land Raiders).

And the NL survived because of Sevatar's plan to scatter the legion, not because of anything Curze did.