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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Lorgar was self-admittedly the worst, though Angron gives him a run for his money with the utterly ridiculous tactics the World Eaters use.

But then again, the World Eaters are the Orks of Space Marines. Just not as funny.

I always thought their style of warfare was laughable.

IIRC Lorgar's self-appraisal was motivated by self-pity rather than being objective. Even if Angron managed to conquer more planets, were there any survivors?

Tangentially:

I bet the Emperor used the UM to "rectify" the Word Bearers in part to head off any excuses about leaving stable systems in the wake of the Crusade. Guilliman's work exhibited both quality and quantity. Lorgar had no problems conquering worlds. His issue was that doing so bored him. He procrastinated by indulging in church-building. He's only a bad general so far as I can tell inasmuch as he doesn't want to be one.

 Manchu wrote:
IIRC Lorgar's self-appraisal was motivated by self-pity rather than being objective. Even if Angron managed to conquer more planets, were there any survivors?

Tangentially:

I bet the Emperor used the UM to "rectify" the Word Bearers in part to head off any excuses about leaving stable systems in the wake of the Crusade. Guilliman's work exhibited both quality and quantity. Lorgar had no problems conquering worlds. His issue was that doing so bored him. He procrastinated by indulging in church-building. He's only a bad general so far as I can tell inasmuch as he doesn't want to be one.

Yeah, exactly that. After they were rebuked and he set his mind to it, the WB were very successful.

 Manchu wrote:
"General" is not just another word for commander. Angron clearly inspired the World Eaters to stupendous feats of carnage and I don't doubt his ability as a leader on the fieldbut I have to wonder: who coordinated his fleets? who provided for his supply lines? Who crafted the strategy by which his legion acted? Keep in mind that Angron could not even overcome the warlords of Nuceria

I agree with what you say about his fleet and supply lines as from Betrayer and The Butchers Nails he seems to only care about the kill. So who does coordinate the logistics etc. I think it would be left to the Human Serfs personally, as the World Eaters do not seem to have numbers and direction held in high regard.

But on Nuceria, I don't agree with you. I think he accomplished a lot until he was heavily outnumbered and outgunned and his death and his colleagues was inevitable.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

I bet the Emperor used the UM to "rectify" the Word Bearers in part to head off any excuses about leaving stable systems in the wake of the Crusade. Guilliman's work exhibited both quality and quantity. Lorgar had no problems conquering worlds. His issue was that doing so bored him. He procrastinated by indulging in church-building. He's only a bad general so far as I can tell inasmuch as he doesn't want to be one.

Yeah, exactly that. After they were rebuked and he set his mind to it, the WB were very successful.

Yep, but not the way the Emperor wanted it to be had he had known

Lorgar. He didn't care much about waging war, or being a general. He was a full blown scholar.

Angron would have been a great general, but the Butcher's Nails inhibit his ability to think rationally from time to time.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Lorgar. He didn't care much about waging war, or being a general. He was a full blown scholar.

Angron would have been a great general, but the Butcher's Nails inhibit his ability to think rationally from time to time.

Well we don't really know that, he could've been like Lorgar without the Nails, or he could've been another Guilliman. But we don't have a clue.

It is stated in the HH about how Lorgar was worst general. Angron at least had Kharn to temper him and guide him.

 Envihon wrote:
It is stated in the HH about how Lorgar was worst general. Angron at least had Kharn to temper him and guide him.

If by its stated you mean, Lorgar says he's the worst general because he doesn't want to be one, then yeah. But after they get rebuked the WB do very well in the 50 years between then and the heresy, so it's pretty obvious to me that he can be a good general when he actually tries. There's a difference between being a bad general because you don't want to be one, and just being a bad general full stop. Also, the fact Angron needs a normal Space Marine to 'temper and guide him' is also the sign of him not being that great himself... I mean other Primarchs had advisors sure, but they didn't require them to think straight.

Lorgar had Kor Phaeron and Erebus, not sure if that's good or bad.

Well it was bad for him and the Imperium. He relied on them too much but I don't think he required them to be a good general.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Well it was bad for him and the Imperium. He relied on them too much but I don't think he required them to be a good general.

No, but they did guide him, which is what Envihon was saying.

They gave him what he wanted, which was the truth.

No I know, I'm saying I think Angron needed Kharn to have any kind of generalship.

I think you don't get Angron. He does not strive to be a general. He has no love for his legion. Thus, he has no intention to actually leading them. He plain hates his legion, the Emperor and the imperium on the whole. Furthermore, he hates himself. He knows he'd be dead due to Nails no matter what he does. And this inevitable inglorious demise doesn't frighten him at all. He is made to be a self-destructing grizzled killing machine regardless of what he really is. And he hates people who've done it to him. Not because he has pity towards himself. He despises the very act of turning him into what he is.

Angron can't be a good or bad general. Because he is not a general. He is not even a warrior. He's a hate incarnate.

Other primarchs are using his indifference to his own and his legion's destiny to meet their own goals. But that's not because Angron's stupid. He just doesn't care.

That's kindof my whole point. It's not that I don't like Angron, he's a cool, tragic character. But he is by far the worst of the generals of the Primarchs. I've even said in my posts, he basically isn't a general. When they're in battle he's just another one of the WE. He doesn't lead the legion. He just loses himself to the nails. I do get Angron. I like Angron. But he is the worst general of them.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Ah that was Daemon Angron though, who strangely might have more sense than pre ascension Angron...

which actually makes sense, as the Butcher's Nails would no longer be clouding his mind. Daemon Angron is more like Russ on steroids; an intelligent berserker with a modicum of self-control.


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 Redcruisair wrote:
Didn't the ascended Angron just charge towards the enemy in the Armegeddon war, like he always does?

Well, yeah, he's a frackin' berserker, what do you expect? Just because he can mastermind a massive planetary invasion does not mean that he doesn't enjoy bashin' skullz erry now and again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
That's kindof my whole point. It's not that I don't like Angron, he's a cool, tragic character. But he is by far the worst of the generals of the Primarchs. I've even said in my posts, he basically isn't a general. When they're in battle he's just another one of the WE. He doesn't lead the legion. He just loses himself to the nails. I do get Angron. I like Angron. But he is the worst general of them.

Pre-Heresy, Angron was essentially a Furioso Dreadnought made flesh. He basically led the way through sheer ferocity; none could stand before him, and through that, his men followed alongside him.

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Ah that was Daemon Angron though, who strangely might have more sense than pre ascension Angron...

which actually makes sense, as the Butcher's Nails would no longer be clouding his mind. Daemon Angron is more like Russ on steroids; an intelligent berserker with a modicum of self-control.

So you don't see the irony in a daemon prince of Khorne having more control than a mortal Primarch?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
That's kindof my whole point. It's not that I don't like Angron, he's a cool, tragic character. But he is by far the worst of the generals of the Primarchs. I've even said in my posts, he basically isn't a general. When they're in battle he's just another one of the WE. He doesn't lead the legion. He just loses himself to the nails. I do get Angron. I like Angron. But he is the worst general of them.

Pre-Heresy, Angron was essentially a Furioso Dreadnought made flesh. He basically led the way through sheer ferocity; none could stand before him, and through that, his men followed alongside him.

They didn't even follow alongside him though. He just rushed off and left them in the dust, isolating himself from them. He wasn't even leading from the front, he just did his own thing.

 dusara217 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Didn't the ascended Angron just charge towards the enemy in the Armegeddon war, like he always does?

Well, yeah, he's a frackin' berserker, what do you expect?

I expect him to fail and (preferably) suffer a very painful and ignoble death. If you’re just charging towards the enemy, then you deserve be led into an obvious trap and be destroyed.
That’s something Angron has already experienced twice and he learned nothing from it. Case in point: Angron makes for a horrible general because he’s a suicidal maniac, who doesn’t care if he and his troops die during a battle.

 dusara217 wrote:
Just because he can mastermind a massive planetary invasion does not mean that he doesn't enjoy bashin' skullz erry now and again.

Nah mate, Angron didn't mastermind nothing. It was Khorne who directed and provieded for Angron all the way to Armegeddon.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Just because he can mastermind a massive planetary invasion does not mean that he doesn't enjoy bashin' skullz erry now and again.

Nah mate, Angron didn't mastermind nothing. It was Khorne who directed and provieded for Angron all the way to Armegeddon.

Slaanesh told you that?

I honestly don't. Daemons are known to be cunning, and just because he loves killing and rage doesn't mean that he's a mindless berzerker. The Butcher's Nails were what made Angron a mindless berzerker.

Angron is what he is. He is very likely the most worthless Primarch. Ascension only saved him from death. Yes we can blame the nails for his suckage. Ascension may have given him a bit of tactical acumen back, but he will always be who he is.

Angrin was and is a great general, he was know for the primarch who's legion and him are sent to kill. everything. Angryon know what his legion can do and does it if they can accomplish kill kill kill the bat then let em kill kill kill. And without the butchers nails he is a genius, but still he is a Berzerker because of him being a Daemon Prince of. Khorne which basically is a Berzerker daemon prince.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Angrin was and is a great general, he was know for the primarch who's legion and him are sent to kill. everything. Angryon know what his legion can do and does it if they can accomplish kill kill kill the bat then let em kill kill kill. And without the butchers nails he is a genius, but still he is a Berzerker because of him being a Daemon Prince of. Khorne which basically is a Berzerker daemon prince.

Again. You don't need to be a good general to massacre planets when you have a legion of 150000 Space Marines perfectly willing to kill anything in their path. The fact that that was the only battle plan they ever used is a big part of why he isn't a good general, and he didn't even lead them or coordinate them, he landed and just rushed off leaving his legion behind. Kharn and Lortara do most of the coordination of the WE.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Angrin was and is a great general, he was know for the primarch who's legion and him are sent to kill. everything. Angryon know what his legion can do and does it if they can accomplish kill kill kill the bat then let em kill kill kill. And without the butchers nails he is a genius, but still he is a Berzerker because of him being a Daemon Prince of. Khorne which basically is a Berzerker daemon prince.

Again. You don't need to be a good general to massacre planets when you have a legion of 150000 Space Marines perfectly willing to kill anything in their path. The fact that that was the only battle plan they ever used is a big part of why he isn't a good general, and he didn't even lead them or coordinate them, he landed and just rushed off leaving his legion behind. Kharn and Lortara do most of the coordination of the WE.

This is why boatloads of World Eaters died everywhere they went that had sufficient force to fight back. Sure, Angron won...but the point of Space Marine legions is that there's nothing out there that can beat them.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Angrin was and is a great general, he was know for the primarch who's legion and him are sent to kill. everything. Angryon know what his legion can do and does it if they can accomplish kill kill kill the bat then let em kill kill kill. And without the butchers nails he is a genius, but still he is a Berzerker because of him being a Daemon Prince of. Khorne which basically is a Berzerker daemon prince.

SO you're saying that if his legion couldn't accomplish that he would actually lead them and act as a proper general ? No he wouldn't, and just letting your men do their thing is not the act of a great general. And there are no proof of him being a genius without his nails. He might have been one if he had never been implanted with the Nails. But even now he has been released from them, he is still lost into his old habits and conditioning inherited from his two centuries of their influence.

Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.

He really isn't a smug arrogant whatever. He's always come across rather humble from what I've read. And there's a seperate thread for worst loyalist Primarch.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.

He really isn't a smug arrogant whatever. He's always come across rather humble from what I've read. And there's a seperate thread for worst loyalist Primarch.

This is the image cultivated by GW before Unremembered Empire. I hated the smurfs like everyone else until I read that book. One line got me more than the rest where a legionnaire comes up to Guilliman and the primarch says his armor is too shiny and that he's trying too hard, to which the marine replies, "But we're Ultramarines. We're supposed to try harder."

Right in the damn feels.

 Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
Well we should look and draw comparsions now grandpa smurf is the worst loyalist primarch cos hes a smug arrogant little s!@#$ who else is overconfident tjinks hes better than the emporer horus.

He really isn't a smug arrogant whatever. He's always come across rather humble from what I've read. And there's a seperate thread for worst loyalist Primarch.

This is the image cultivated by GW before Unremembered Empire. I hated the smurfs like everyone else until I read that book. One line got me more than the rest where a legionnaire comes up to Guilliman and the primarch says his armor is too shiny and that he's trying too hard, to which the marine replies, "But we're Ultramarines. We're supposed to try harder."

Right in the damn feels.

Know No Fear was the one that got me into an 'UM Fanboy'. It did an excellent job of humanising Guilliman, and making him a well rounded, and likeable imo, character.

Oh well im only up to scars ive not read it and horus i should metion its his actions i dont like. He thinks he is all power full but he cant keep control. Hes a pawn playing at being the king and he has no idea that the chaos gods are plucking at his strings.

Angron, lol.

Upon reaching the surface of a planet, his battle plan was literally to start sprinting in a random direction to kill whoever he found. His Legion operated the same way, when they didn't have someone like Kharn to lead them (and even he was prone to losing his mind during battle).