Who is the modern 'Dirt Bag' chapter?

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**Shidank**

Marines Malevolent seem a fair guess on this one.

While on this, what seems to make a chapter stick out as an unworthy successor to the Astartes mantle?

It can't be ruthlessness alone, or the Carcharodons would be near the top. Looking at the Soul Drinkers, impetuosity seems a contributing factor.

**Shidank**

If renegade chapters have taught us anything, it's that any chapter can go from hero to villain. Those who aren't necessarily heroes may have a stronger inclination to become villains if left unaccountable.

So, who do you think would bear watching in 40k? What is it that would make them garner such attention?

**Shidank**

Que?

**Shidank**

The Space Wolves were responding to a broken oath of parley. They were within their rights to execute the offending captain.

**Shidank**

Manchu wrote:
The Marines Malevolent are almost lovably absurd. They are like Wario Marines.

Quite possibly the best depiction of the Marines Malevolent I have ever heard. Well done.

Minotaurs are a BIT on the douche side with as much as they love killing marines, aren't they?

**Shidank**

CShaffer wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
CShaffer wrote:
Does not matter.

Yes it does. You're attempting to paint the Wolves as being the aggressors in the situation when they clearly weren't. Their protest against the Inquisition/Grey Knights was entirely peaceful until the Grey Knights started killing Space Wolves, at which point the Wolves retaliated.

"b-but the Inquisition said!" is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since it's an out-of-character discussion and the Inquisition is a fallible (and inconsistent) organization. If the Space Wolves are "dirt-bags" for going against the Inquisitions' orders, then you would have to concede that Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and every other hero of the Imperium who's defied the Inquisition is as well.

But its not irrelevant, they are a chamber militant of the inquisition, They do as the inquisition says. The inquisition is law.
No ifs and or buts.
If the imperial guard lands on your planet and blows stuff up and you fire back your a heretic (defense is no justification to resisting the imperium.). Their is a strict hierarchy and no matter how hard the space marines try they are sub servant to the inquisition.

As the highest authority it does not matter if they spout out a load. As long the inquisition enforces it that's the law.

Turns out the imperium is grimdark. Live with it lol.

Actually, Chapter Masters answer only to the Emperor or the High Lords of Terra.

They typically elect to go along with Inquisitors because otherwise, they're just asking for trouble later on. The Grey Knights are not necessarily subservient or dependent on the Ordo Malleus in the way the Deathwatch is answerable to the Ordo Xenos. They are a chapter and they have some of the same freedoms as other chapters. Their insanely close ties and status as military branch of Malleus makes them something of a special case.

**Shidank**

j31c3n wrote:
Nobody. Orders a Chapter Master to do anything. You ask nicely.

That said, political pressure can compel a chapter to do things. Penitent crusades and so on. But a Chapter Master ultimately has the final decision. Obviously if a chapter gets too out of line, they get Minotaur'd. They know this. But that doesn't change that ultimately, a Chapter Master answers only to the Emperor. Not the High Lords. Not the Inquisition. Not their fellow Chapter Masters.

"Being a peer of the Imperium of Man, the Chapter Master acts with authority as he sees fit, according to his own counsel and judgment, answerable to no one except his fellow Chapter Masters and the Emperor of Mankind himself or his representatives, the High Lords of Terra." http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Chapter_Master

That quote was paraphrased from 5th Edition SM Codex.

SO....Emperor > High Lords of Terra > SM Chapter Master = Inquisitor > Rogue Trader

**Shidank**

j31c3n wrote:
>quotes 40kwikia like it's reliable

Lol and told you where to find it in GW printed fluff. Again, since you may have missed it, you can find the information in the 5th Ed. SM Codex.

A Chapter Master can only be compelled by the Emperor, High Lords, or an assembly of his peers.

**Shidank**

That's a legitimate suggestion. They can be pretty D-Baggy.

**Shidank**

They haven't had enough quality 40k fluff written, but what I can take away from the interactions in the HH seems to paint them in a similar(if more highly regarded) light than their 40k counterparts.

They just seem largely distrustful and untrusted. They seem to have a valid SM moral compass in regards to the Imperium, yet have a cold detachment from individuals in that Imperium.

Honestly, they're a lot like their Primarch.

**Shidank**

Honestly, it surprised me how much damage the Thousand Sons did to the Fang considering how epic it was purported to be.

If a bunch of "sissy wizards" can put serious bruising on your house while your Lion bro's castle gets blasted harder than Alderaan and shrugs it off like it's no big deal, there's a problem.

**Shidank**

Sorry, what were you addressing?

**Shidank**

Psienesis wrote:
Shidank wrote:
Sorry, what were you addressing?

1) The claim that the Sisters are not used to bring Space Marines to heel.

2) The claim that Inquisitors have no authority over Space Marines.

Ah, gotcha. Inquisitors don't have direct authority, though. While I don't have access to Codex materials at present, you're welcome to look for more than Sisters of Battle references to attacking renegade chapters(as any militant body in the Imperium would).

Inquisitors can request and, for the most part, chapters acquiesce. If they don't and a significant loss is incurred, the Inquisitor has the power to review and declare them traitors for other chapters or militant forces in the Imperium to punish.

The point of Inquisitors not being able to order around chapters is actually pretty essential to the working of the Imperium. You cannot believe Inquisitors have power over Chapters if they don't actively ferry them around as a private army. It makes no sense politically for this to be the case. Luckily, we've had a decent enough supply of information in fluff to realize there is a tenuous balance where Inquisitors ask and are generally answered but where they cannot outright demand.

**Shidank**

Psienesis wrote:
Yes, Inquisitors have direct authority.

Inquisitors can request and, for the most part, chapters acquiesce. If they don't and a significant loss is incurred, the Inquisitor has the power to review and declare them traitors for other chapters or militant forces in the Imperium to punish.

That would be an example of said direct authority. An Inquisitor is (usually) part politician, and knows it's a lot easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar... but is fully within his/her remit to tell a Space Marine Chapter "go do this right now". The Inquisitor doesn't need to add the "or else" bit, anyone with half a functioning braincell in the Imperium knows that such is implied when dealing with an Inquisitor.

Since you've moved from 'Direct Superior' to 'Political Figurehead' regarding Inquisitors, I can agree that you can treat them as superiors. I would just prefer you acknowledge that they are, legally, unable to order a Space Marine chapter.

It's not a difficult position to comprehend that Inquisitors occupy and while no one here has argued that they aren't the most politically powerful officers in the Imperium, we've also acknowledged that the breaking of legions in the second founding would be directly contradicted by letting these agents have control of the most powerful military force in the galaxy.

So, if you would be so kind and for clarity of others who catch up on the thread, please consider this and either refute with explicit evidence which is practical in-universe within the long history of 40k or accept the position of Space Marine Chapter Master as an entity enthralled only to the Emperor and his representatives in the flesh, the High Lords of Terra.

**Shidank**

BrianDavion wrote:
Shidank wrote:
j31c3n wrote:
>quotes 40kwikia like it's reliable

Lol and told you where to find it in GW printed fluff. Again, since you may have missed it, you can find the information in the 5th Ed. SM Codex.

A Chapter Master can only be compelled by the Emperor, High Lords, or an assembly of his peers.

Actually the DIRECT QUOTE is.. "A chapter Master is a peer of the Imperium, with authority to act as he wishes according to his own judgement, and answerable only to others of his rank"

So I suppose the question is do they mean chapter masters are answerable, on paper, only to other chapter masters, or are they answerable to anyone of equivilant peerage? (whatever that means)

Thank you. FInally, someone reinforces my point. The peer of a chapter master is considered to be Inquisitor, Rogue Trader, or other Chapter Master.

**Shidank**

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Shidank wrote:
Sorry, what were you addressing?

1) The claim that the Sisters are not used to bring Space Marines to heel.

2) The claim that Inquisitors have no authority over Space Marines.
Except your first and last quote reference the Ordo Hereticus, not the Sisters. At no point did you have to own even a single Sisters of Battle figure to play with Codex Witch Hunters or the Ordo Hereticus.

And the second quote I already addressed. You claimed they were the "go to", which is not substantiated by anything you quoted. In fact, I quoted it in my post. Just because they can doesn't mean they are the first or even second choice. It took 9 Orders to kill a couple hundred Red Corsairs according to the latest Sisters codex. Not very cost effective when a few hundred Grey Knights or Space Marines can do the same thing, only better.

The idea of the Sisters being the first choice for fighting renegade Space Marines has no substantiation in the fluff. The idea that the Sisters sometimes challenge Space Marines, is substantiated in the fluff. Of course, if there are some renegade Space Marines floating around ruining your part of space and you have a bunch of Sisters of Battle not doing anything, then you toss them at the Space Marines and hope you can salvage enough of the wrecked gear to equip their replacements. But if you can get some good guy Space Marines or Grey Knights on the case, all the better. After all, Space Marines come as part of a fully functional, self-contained, self-supporting combat unit, where as the Sisters of Battle show up with some short ranged weaponry and a lot of attitude.

At least this has been put to rest. I remember the first Sisters battle against Space Marines I ever read and thinking, "How are these women useful to anyone?"

It's all at the discretion of the writer, I suppose.

**Shidank**

Ashiraya wrote:
dusara217 wrote:
Wow, a Rogue Trader is a Chapter Master's peer? I think that Space Marines just got knocked down a peg in my mind...

Nothing suggests that this is the case.

Pretty sure this is just on paper to make Rogue Trader characters seem more interesting. I HIGHLY doubt a Chapter Master would entertain such a notion.

**Shidank**

Psienesis wrote:
Rogue Traders are given certain rights in their Charters to do things that normal citizens of the Imperium cannot do (such as own starships or trade with Xenos). These Charters are passed down through the lines of the Trade Dynasty, and can be quite valuable, as things are added to them with new writs and charters, assigned by various Imperial officials and other worthies.

These Charters do not, in any way, put a Rogue Trader on an equal footing with a Chapter Master or an Inquisitor. A Rogue Trader who is acting outside of his or her Warrant of Trade (by, say, smuggling artifacts off of Daemon Worlds) is just as screwed if an Inquisitorial fleet catches up with them as anyone else would be.

If I implied that a Rogue Trader was the equal of an Inquisitor, that was my mistake.

As far as autonomy, the Rogue Trader is comparable to a Chapter Master. A Chapter Master cannot legally compel a Rogue Trader just as a Rogue Trader cannot legally compel a Chapter Master. The main difference between those two is that one is subject to the Inquisitoion while the other is not.

**Shidank**

BrianDavion wrote:
I think the best way to view the power of the Inqusition is that "his authority extends are far as the length of his sword" Basicly an Inquisitor has a huge amount of power in theory, but ultimatly his power extends as far as he can extend it.

A profoundly insightful comment on the nature of the most powerful individuals in the Imperium. I'm sure someone with more poetry in their veins could make that into a statement on the Imperium itself.

**Shidank**

J3f wrote:

Nope, The Sisters of Battle are an Inquisitor's first choice in destroying a renegade Space Marine Chapter. They're the only Force in the Imperium ~~Crazy~~ Loyal enough to challenge Space Marines in a fight. Citadel Journal 49 laid it all out in the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, which was written during 3rd edition. The Sisters of Battle led by an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor launch a surprise attack using Drop Pods and Imperial Navy Strike Cruisers, in an effort to eliminate the Chapters leadership. Space Marines aren't asked to attack their fellow Brothers, unless they have blatantly fallen to Chaos.

I could see an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor doing this, but only because that's exactly what they would be expected to do.

To draw this conclusion from a limited pool of examples seems silly. The Imperium would use any and all available resources to destroy a renegade chapter. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

It looks like we have a list of the following candidates for DirtBag:

Carcharodons
Grey Knights
Minotaurs
Marines Malevolent

I think someone mentioned the Red Hunters too

**Shidank**

What I've seen is text that provides a scenario for fielding a Space Marine army against Sororitas, nothing to suggest that Sisters of Battle are the primary means of dealing with renegades. Arguing on pedantic talking points is getting nowhere.

As for the dirtbag chapters, what was the story on the Grey Knights knowing the Dark Angel's secret?

**Shidank**

Taking the suggestions here, would we be able to make a poll on this? Would there be sufficient discussion remaining to justify a new thread?

If not, we can let this die here. I'm happy with the amount of discourse we've seen.

**Shidank**

We pretty much let the Inquisition thing die off.