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Minotaurs, because they sacrifice their battle brothers in droves just to get a job done

Space Wolves. Just a terrible, awful chapter.

For me it's a toss up between Marines Malevolent and Dark Angels

And I'd like to bring up the Red Scorpions, while probably not the most D-Bag chapter, they'd probably make my top 10 most D-bag list thanks to Carab Culln and the events surrounding the Anphelion Project

I cant help but think that the Blood Ravens should be on that list ...they have relics from so many chapters that they have "traded" with .... no records are found that any trade of weapons happened. These guys would steal anything that is not nailed down, actually they would steal things that ARE nailed down too. Their chapter master/chief librarian pledged himself to Khorne ... a god who despises psykers. These guys are complete dirt bags.

The Marines Malevolent are probably the worst of them all, but just right behind is the Carcharodons. Sometimes they're just as bad when it comes to wanting to get the job done, as the Star Phantoms can attest to.

Minotaurs by far imho are the worst.

Dear OP:

The Minotaurs by a country mile.

Honorable mention: those awful Grey Knights.

Also: there is a guy in this thread who I swear is wasted or is crazy in love with the Inquisition or is pulling for laughs and it is working here.

 CShaffer wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
No, the Inquisition answers to the Emperor.

So do the High Lords.

Emperor is a corpse, inquisition answers to itself.
At least until he comes back.

Maybe, but the High Lords have the Officio Assassinorum. In a pissing match, that's going to count for a lot.

Also, unlike the Inquisition, the High Lords are at least occasionally united and not all excommunicating each other. That's the usefulness of having only 12 members in one place instead of millions spread across the galaxy.

On one last note on this, when the entire power of the High Lords was in the hands of one lunatic (Goge Vandire) the Inq didn't do a fraking thing about him, despite being very much around at that point in time. It took rebel forces from hundreds of worlds, led by a humble preacher, and several Space Marine chapters to bring him down. I think that says all you need to know about the High Lords vs. the Inquisition. Yes, the Inquisition is technically outside the High Lords' chain of command, but the Inquisition is a group of secret police within the Imperium. The High Lords have supreme authority over every other organization within the Imperium, with the exception of the Adeptus Astartes. If some random Inquisitor Lord tries to boss around the High Lords, he's going to become an unperson pretty fast, unless he has a truly massive group of allies behind him.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Minotaurs by far imho are the worst.

The Carcharodons blew up Badab Prime while it was full of Loyalist troops and Space Marines for gaks and giggles.

What have the Minotaurs done (or any chapter, really) that's worse than that?

... except maybe what they did to the Endymion cluster...

I really don't see how the Minotaurs are bad when they're the Military Police of space marines. Somebody has to enforce the law and keep the Chapters in line.

But ... that's not really their job. At least not according to history or tradition, which you may have noticed generally count for a lot among SM of all flavors. The Minotaurs are sell-outs and scabs. Where's the dignity in being Lackey Marines?

 Manchu wrote:
But ... that's not really their job. At least not according to history or tradition, which you may have noticed generally count for a lot among SM of all flavors. The Minotaurs are sell-outs and scabs. Where's the dignity in being Lackey Marines?

Looking at the Badab Wars, I'd say that their job is very justified. Plus it's not really "selling out" considering that the High Lords of Terra ARE the Imperium and the Adeptus Astartes answer directly to them.

I think you are taking on an organizational chart a bit too literally. In all the fluff I have read, the IoM functions mostly by cooperation thanks to shared values -- as opposed to each part of this sprawling institution rigidly and mindlessly obeying orders up and down an efficient, monolithic chain of command. SM are generally speaking virtually autonomous. They trace their lineage through the primarchs to the Emperor himself. Some of them don't even bother to gene-tithe, which seems to be their only formal obligation to the High Lords.

Also why are you bringing up whether what the Minotaurs do is justified? All I said is being MPs is not their job.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I really don't see how the Minotaurs are bad when they're the Military Police of space marines. Somebody has to enforce the law and keep the Chapters in line.

This is from Lexicanum on the Minotaurs. "The Minotaurs of M41, whilst appearing more at home within the bounds of the Imperium and seemingly enjoying the patronage of the High Lords, have still managed to acquire an unsavoury reputation amongst some of their fellow Adeptus Astartes, The Ultramarines and their allied Successor Chapters in particular have refused to fight alongside the Minotaurs as a result of both the Minotaurs' almost total eradication of the Inceptors chapter in what some saw as an over-reaction, their public insulting of Marneus Calgar and the provocation given to the Genesis Chapter during the fourteenth siege of Antigonis."

Here's exactly what they did to the Incepters. "The Inceptors fought during the Macharian Crusade, but during the subsequent Macharian Heresy they came to blows with their former allies, the Doom Warriors over a matter of honour. In the Euxcine system they fought a long-running and protracted conflict under predetermined rules of engagement. They refused to end the conflict, and as a consequence the Minotaurs Chapter was dispatched to end it for them.[2]
The two Chapters were caught unprepared and, although the Doom Warriors were able to escape the system, the Inceptors were stranded on Euxcine and were systematically destroyed until fewer than a hundred Space Marines were forced to surrender. Many of the Chapter's relics, including their flagship - a Great Crusade-era assault ship - were captured by the Minotaurs. The Minotaurs were subsequently denounced across Ultramar and forbidden from entering its boundaries. Other Ultramarine-descended Chapters have also sworn vengeance against the Minotaurs."

The Minotaurs are cowards, brutes and lapdogs with no sense of loyalty to their brother SM chapters. Again, there are a lot of SM chapters that do controversial things but to me, I hate the Minotaurs the most. Just my opinion.

 CShaffer wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 CShaffer wrote:
Does not matter.

Yes it does. You're attempting to paint the Wolves as being the aggressors in the situation when they clearly weren't. Their protest against the Inquisition/Grey Knights was entirely peaceful until the Grey Knights started killing Space Wolves, at which point the Wolves retaliated.

"b-but the Inquisition said!" is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since it's an out-of-character discussion and the Inquisition is a fallible (and inconsistent) organization. If the Space Wolves are "dirt-bags" for going against the Inquisitions' orders, then you would have to concede that Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and every other hero of the Imperium who's defied the Inquisition is as well.

But its not irrelevant, they are a chamber militant of the inquisition, They do as the inquisition says. The inquisition is law.
No ifs and or buts.
If the imperial guard lands on your planet and blows stuff up and you fire back your a heretic (defense is no justification to resisting the imperium.). Their is a strict hierarchy and no matter how hard the space marines try they are sub servant to the inquisition.

As the highest authority it does not matter if they spout out a load. As long the inquisition enforces it that's the law.

Turns out the imperium is grimdark. Live with it lol.

Who gives a gak though, my guy? I mean, how does defying "the hierarchy" intrinsically make you a dirt-bag? If the topic of this thread was "who is the modern authority-defying chapter" then I could see how the Wolves telling the Inquisition to feth off could be relevant, but since that isn't the topic, it isn't really.

The Marines Malevolent probably take this mantle. The Minotaurs are a close second though.

I'd give the Flesh Tearers a pass, because at least they have an excuse.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Marines Malevolent probably take this mantle. The Minotaurs are a close second though.

I'd give the Flesh Tearers a pass, because at least they have an excuse.

Honestly, the Flesh Tearerrs are just World Eaters with the Black Rage instead of the Butcher's Nails. They get a pass. Minotaurs just make me want to punch a baby in the face with spiked knuckles on. Could somebody please provide examples of Mairnes Malevolent being douchebags?

 dusara217 wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Marines Malevolent probably take this mantle. The Minotaurs are a close second though.

I'd give the Flesh Tearers a pass, because at least they have an excuse.

Honestly, the Flesh Tearerrs are just World Eaters with the Black Rage instead of the Butcher's Nails. They get a pass. Minotaurs just make me want to punch a baby in the face with spiked knuckles on. Could somebody please provide examples of Mairnes Malevolent being douchebags?

Orks once took human hostages. The Marines Malevolent's response to this was to shell the hostages.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Marines Malevolent probably take this mantle. The Minotaurs are a close second though.

I'd give the Flesh Tearers a pass, because at least they have an excuse.

Honestly, the Flesh Tearerrs are just World Eaters with the Black Rage instead of the Butcher's Nails. They get a pass. Minotaurs just make me want to punch a baby in the face with spiked knuckles on. Could somebody please provide examples of Mairnes Malevolent being douchebags?

When they used Whirlwind artillery to bombard a refugee camp packed with Imperial civvies in order to get at the Ork warband inside the camp, Killing about 4,000 refugees, According to the Marines Malevolent those who are weak do not deserve to live(According to their leader's speech after the bombardment)

That's their entire schtick, and always has been.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030227232959/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/malevolent.html

That's a pretty good reason, anything else? Because, so far, that places Marines Malevolent in second place for me.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 CShaffer wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 CShaffer wrote:
Does not matter.

Yes it does. You're attempting to paint the Wolves as being the aggressors in the situation when they clearly weren't. Their protest against the Inquisition/Grey Knights was entirely peaceful until the Grey Knights started killing Space Wolves, at which point the Wolves retaliated.

"b-but the Inquisition said!" is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since it's an out-of-character discussion and the Inquisition is a fallible (and inconsistent) organization. If the Space Wolves are "dirt-bags" for going against the Inquisitions' orders, then you would have to concede that Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and every other hero of the Imperium who's defied the Inquisition is as well.

But its not irrelevant, they are a chamber militant of the inquisition, They do as the inquisition says. The inquisition is law.
No ifs and or buts.
If the imperial guard lands on your planet and blows stuff up and you fire back your a heretic (defense is no justification to resisting the imperium.). Their is a strict hierarchy and no matter how hard the space marines try they are sub servant to the inquisition.

As the highest authority it does not matter if they spout out a load. As long the inquisition enforces it that's the law.

Turns out the imperium is grimdark. Live with it lol.

Who gives a gak though, my guy? I mean, how does defying "the hierarchy" intrinsically make you a dirt-bag? If the topic of this thread was "who is the modern authority-defying chapter" then I could see how the Wolves telling the Inquisition to feth off could be relevant, but since that isn't the topic, it isn't really.

You right, guess I went off on my own tangent. Turned it into a F the Space Wolves. (not an inquisition fan boy, more of a dark angels lol.)

 CShaffer wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 CShaffer wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 CShaffer wrote:
Does not matter.

Yes it does. You're attempting to paint the Wolves as being the aggressors in the situation when they clearly weren't. Their protest against the Inquisition/Grey Knights was entirely peaceful until the Grey Knights started killing Space Wolves, at which point the Wolves retaliated.

"b-but the Inquisition said!" is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, since it's an out-of-character discussion and the Inquisition is a fallible (and inconsistent) organization. If the Space Wolves are "dirt-bags" for going against the Inquisitions' orders, then you would have to concede that Gaunt, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and every other hero of the Imperium who's defied the Inquisition is as well.

But its not irrelevant, they are a chamber militant of the inquisition, They do as the inquisition says. The inquisition is law.
No ifs and or buts.
If the imperial guard lands on your planet and blows stuff up and you fire back your a heretic (defense is no justification to resisting the imperium.). Their is a strict hierarchy and no matter how hard the space marines try they are sub servant to the inquisition.

As the highest authority it does not matter if they spout out a load. As long the inquisition enforces it that's the law.

Turns out the imperium is grimdark. Live with it lol.

Who gives a gak though, my guy? I mean, how does defying "the hierarchy" intrinsically make you a dirt-bag? If the topic of this thread was "who is the modern authority-defying chapter" then I could see how the Wolves telling the Inquisition to feth off could be relevant, but since that isn't the topic, it isn't really.

You right, guess I went off on my own tangent. Turned it into a F the Space Wolves. (not an inquisition fan boy, more of a dark angels lol.)

Not much of a Dark Angels fanboy if you're siding with the Inquisition. Angels are well known for not trusting the Inquisition and making Inquisitors "disappear". They'd said with the Wolves against the Inquisition if it came down to it. The feud between the two is more a brotherly formality than any real aggression.

No ones mentioned the Flesh Tearers yet. they turned on an Imperial Guard regiment that was helping them fight back an Ork WAAAAGH! just because they wanted to kill more.

 fallinq wrote:

 CShaffer wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
No, the Inquisition answers to the Emperor.

So do the High Lords.

Emperor is a corpse, inquisition answers to itself.
At least until he comes back.

Maybe, but the High Lords have the Officio Assassinorum. In a pissing match, that's going to count for a lot.

Also, unlike the Inquisition, the High Lords are at least occasionally united and not all excommunicating each other. That's the usefulness of having only 12 members in one place instead of millions spread across the galaxy.

On one last note on this, when the entire power of the High Lords was in the hands of one lunatic (Goge Vandire) the Inq didn't do a fraking thing about him, despite being very much around at that point in time. It took rebel forces from hundreds of worlds, led by a humble preacher, and several Space Marine chapters to bring him down. I think that says all you need to know about the High Lords vs. the Inquisition. Yes, the Inquisition is technically outside the High Lords' chain of command, but the Inquisition is a group of secret police within the Imperium. The High Lords have supreme authority over every other organization within the Imperium, with the exception of the Adeptus Astartes. If some random Inquisitor Lord tries to boss around the High Lords, he's going to become an unperson pretty fast, unless he has a truly massive group of allies behind him.

Goge Vandire had the Sisters of Battle protecting him. The modern High Lords would only have organizations loyal to each individual member and the Minotaurs. The Inquisition has the Grey Knights, Death Watch and the Adepta Sororitas to call upon. Also the Ordo Hereticus wasn't formed until after Goge Vandire's rule.

 Wyzilla wrote:
the High Lords of Terra ARE the Imperium and the Adeptus Astartes answer directly to them.

A Chapter Master of the Space Marines answers to no one, save the Emperor.

 j31c3n wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
the High Lords of Terra ARE the Imperium and the Adeptus Astartes answer directly to them.

A Chapter Master of the Space Marines answers to no one, save the Emperor.

And his peers, like Inquisitors and other Chapter Masters

 dusara217 wrote:

And his peers, like Inquisitors and other Chapter Masters

Those are debatable in some cases.

A chapter master is generally answerable to fellow chapter masters from chapters that trace themselves back to the same primarch. This is why Space Wolves and chapters with unknown primarchs (*cough Blood Ravens cough*) get away with more than most would.

An inquisitor might simply lack the resources to peruse the issue, or, worse, several other chapters may back the offending chapter (for whatever reasons). The local Conclave might just tell them to drop it in that case, not wanting Badab War II: The Genoblastoapocalypticon opening in theaters in their sector.

 dusara217 wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
the High Lords of Terra ARE the Imperium and the Adeptus Astartes answer directly to them.

A Chapter Master of the Space Marines answers to no one, save the Emperor.

And his peers, like Inquisitors and other Chapter Masters

Actually, he is right.

The Chapter Master lore entry in the codex explains not even Inquisitors can command a Chapter Master.

The HLOT represent the Emperor so arguably he'd obey them too, though.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
the High Lords of Terra ARE the Imperium and the Adeptus Astartes answer directly to them.

A Chapter Master of the Space Marines answers to no one, save the Emperor.

And his peers, like Inquisitors and other Chapter Masters

Actually, he is right.

The Chapter Master lore entry in the codex explains not even Inquisitors can command a Chapter Master.

The HLOT represent the Emperor so arguably he'd obey them too, though.

generally from what I understand the convention with space marines is they are never ORDERED to do anything. you REQUEST it of them

Nobody. Orders a Chapter Master to do anything. You ask nicely.

That said, political pressure can compel a chapter to do things. Penitent crusades and so on. But a Chapter Master ultimately has the final decision. Obviously if a chapter gets too out of line, they get Minotaur'd. They know this. But that doesn't change that ultimately, a Chapter Master answers only to the Emperor. Not the High Lords. Not the Inquisition. Not their fellow Chapter Masters.