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Let's say GW were to erratta CW Eldar tonight (I know, never gonna happen):
-Serpent Shield shoots 6"
-Jetbikes give a 4+
- WK is a LoW

With these changes, would Eldar still be broken?

I would hardly call eldar broken. and I know I am going to get hate for this, but nerfs wouldn't stop tourney and WAAC players from spamming the best 3 units to win.

Soooo you would propose we do nothing and live with the status quo?

Of course people are going to try to win, but what you're doing in taking something and simplifying it far too much. Much less you haven't exactly defended your position.

I agree with your first 2 suggestions.

I don't think a Wraithknight needs to be a LOW. But he could be S8, Its minor but i don't see why he's S10 as most things have the same strength and toughness.

What about saying the serpent shield changes it to a glance on a 3+ instead cause that thing is SO annoying?

I think shurikan catapults should be S3 as well. With such a good transport low range isn't a big issue and it would make the bladestorm more bearable. I made a thread about this the other day.

Also Battle Focus should just allow you to run after shooting like it used to be.

I may sound anti Eldar but I like their fluff and models. My problem is that their bag of tricks seems to be bottomless at the moment.

While you are at it, make Ion Accelerators cost 30pts. Markerlights reduce cover rather then remove it. Remove the Ignore Cover Order from imperial guard. Make invisibility 3 Warp Charges. Cap Flyrants at 2. Make grav-weapons range 6, 12 and 18.

40K is not a balanced game. If your nerfing Eldar without touching the other ridiculous tripe, your showing your bias.

 Quickjager wrote:
Soooo you would propose we do nothing and live with the status quo?

Of course people are going to try to win, but what you're doing in taking something and simplifying it far too much. Much less you haven't exactly defended your position.

To me, I constantly hear people talk about how the balance is screwed over in tournaments, and how spams and net lists always win. All "balancing" would to is lead to people looking for and finding some sort of exploit to bring the best they can. I think development shouldn't be as focused on competitive play. because competitive play is the people who WS spam, bring tons of knights, and decided that necrons are best competitive with a billion wraiths, but rather making sure that people have fun playing at their local store. none of the things he listed are impossible to beat. I may stand alone on this, but I have an incredible wide and verier group of players in my town, and not once has balanced fethed me over.

And what is wrong with the status quo? Eldar run fine, and are hardly broken, so why change stuff? because the highly specialized army has highly specialized solutions to vehicles and dealing with their crap toughness?

WK isn't really on par to take the LoW slot, its good, but easily killable.

The answer to any "can 40k be fixed simply" question is always no.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Soooo you would propose we do nothing and live with the status quo?

Of course people are going to try to win, but what you're doing in taking something and simplifying it far too much. Much less you haven't exactly defended your position.

To me, I constantly hear people talk about how the balance is screwed over in tournaments, and how spams and net lists always win. All "balancing" would to is lead to people looking for and finding some sort of exploit to bring the best they can. I think development shouldn't be as focused on competitive play. because competitive play is the people who WS spam, bring tons of knights, and decided that necrons are best competitive with a billion wraiths, but rather making sure that people have fun playing at their local store. none of the things he listed are impossible to beat. I may stand alone on this, but I have an incredible wide and verier group of players in my town, and not once has balanced fethed me over.

And what is wrong with the status quo? Eldar run fine, and are hardly broken, so why change stuff? because the highly specialized army has highly specialized solutions to vehicles and dealing with their crap toughness?

WK isn't really on par to take the LoW slot, its good, but easily killable.

Competitive shows best whats broken and always will do, it shows what works and what dosent work...

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Soooo you would propose we do nothing and live with the status quo?

Of course people are going to try to win, but what you're doing in taking something and simplifying it far too much. Much less you haven't exactly defended your position.

To me, I constantly hear people talk about how the balance is screwed over in tournaments, and how spams and net lists always win. All "balancing" would to is lead to people looking for and finding some sort of exploit to bring the best they can. I think development shouldn't be as focused on competitive play. because competitive play is the people who WS spam, bring tons of knights, and decided that necrons are best competitive with a billion wraiths, but rather making sure that people have fun playing at their local store. none of the things he listed are impossible to beat. I may stand alone on this, but I have an incredible wide and verier group of players in my town, and not once has balanced fethed me over.

And what is wrong with the status quo? Eldar run fine, and are hardly broken, so why change stuff? because the highly specialized army has highly specialized solutions to vehicles and dealing with their crap toughness?

WK isn't really on par to take the LoW slot, its good, but easily killable.

Because there is something wrong with a game if there is a stigma associated with a model or faction. Just by HAVING that faction makes some people raise their eyebrows; I know what I'm talking about with that since I DID play GK in 5th ed. and I simply stopped with them for a while. What if that person LIKES WS? That kinda feths them over, fluffy list? WS is incredibly fluffy (not enough to have 6 of them) but it isn't pushing by saying just having three of them is questionable. Imperial Knights are another great example, nice fluff, damn good-looking model, one by itself is fun challenge, two is a chore, three is where you start questioning why you brought half your army.

I don't really have to deal with that anymore, unless I went insane and wanted to bring 4 Dreadknights @1500.

And what do you mean "the highly specialized army has highly specialized solutions to vehicles and dealing with their crap toughness"? That is disregarding your sloppy handwave of "Eldar run fine, and are hardly broken..."

 Quickjager wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Soooo you would propose we do nothing and live with the status quo?

Of course people are going to try to win, but what you're doing in taking something and simplifying it far too much. Much less you haven't exactly defended your position.

To me, I constantly hear people talk about how the balance is screwed over in tournaments, and how spams and net lists always win. All "balancing" would to is lead to people looking for and finding some sort of exploit to bring the best they can. I think development shouldn't be as focused on competitive play. because competitive play is the people who WS spam, bring tons of knights, and decided that necrons are best competitive with a billion wraiths, but rather making sure that people have fun playing at their local store. none of the things he listed are impossible to beat. I may stand alone on this, but I have an incredible wide and verier group of players in my town, and not once has balanced fethed me over.

And what is wrong with the status quo? Eldar run fine, and are hardly broken, so why change stuff? because the highly specialized army has highly specialized solutions to vehicles and dealing with their crap toughness?

WK isn't really on par to take the LoW slot, its good, but easily killable.

Because there is something wrong with a game if there is a stigma associated with a model or faction. Just by HAVING that faction makes some people raise their eyebrows; I know what I'm talking about with that since I DID play GK in 5th ed. and I simply stopped with them for a while. What if that person LIKES WS? That kinda feths them over, fluffy list? WS is incredibly fluffy (not enough to have 6 of them) but it isn't pushing by saying just having three of them is questionable. Imperial Knights are another great example, nice fluff, damn good-looking model, one by itself is fun challenge, two is a chore, three is where you start questioning why you brought half your army.

I don't really have to deal with that anymore, unless I went insane and wanted to bring 4 Dreadknights @1500.

And what do you mean "the highly specialized army has highly specialized solutions to vehicles and dealing with their crap toughness"? That is disregarding your sloppy handwave of "Eldar run fine, and are hardly broken..."

no, the stigma does not mean something is wrong with the game. the stigma comes from people doing stuff like spamming riptides, WS, and any other spam list. Is that the fault of the game for not having the foresight, or the fault of the player who decided to be an ass? And I know the stigma as well, having played both Modern Tau and Eldar, and old school GK.

What I meant by my statement was that the eldar as a whole have a lot of units that are hard counters to other units, and have solutions to their failings. Jetbike jink, for examble as a solution to failings, and fire dragons + WS for near dedicated anti-tank. I stand by it, eldar, outside of people spamming to try and win tourneys, are not broken enough to warrant a fix outside of tournament level, and even then its based on the level of TFG the eldar player is.

Taffy17 wrote:
I agree with your first 2 suggestions.

I don't think a Wraithknight needs to be a LOW. But he could be S8, Its minor but i don't see why he's S10 as most things have the same strength and toughness.

What about saying the serpent shield changes it to a glance on a 3+ instead cause that thing is SO annoying?

I think shurikan catapults should be S3 as well. With such a good transport low range isn't a big issue and it would make the bladestorm more bearable. I made a thread about this the other day.

Also Battle Focus should just allow you to run after shooting like it used to be.

I may sound anti Eldar but I like their fluff and models. My problem is that their bag of tricks seems to be bottomless at the moment.

You, sir or madame, do not understand why people complain about serpent shields. Unless you were joking and it went over my head. The issue with serpent shields is that the offensive mode is really fantastic, especially when paired with a scatter laser. It busts tanks, hurts all the things, and ignores cover to boot all at range that makes a las cannon jealous.

As discussed in your thread, I don't care for the idea of strength 3 shuriken catapults, but I understand where you're coming from with the idea. You can check out *my* thread in the general section if you haven't already for my thoughts on the matter.

When you mention Battle Focus, do you mean that it should lose the option to let you run before shooting? Because I think most of the frustration associated with it comes from being able to run back into/behind cover after shooting.

And for the record the bag of tricks is one of the main appeals to eldar for me. I like feeling different from the more generic versions of things. I just want us to be "balanced" with those factions we have to cull from time to time.

@Bharring: Those are pretty much the changes I would want to see to quickly rebalance the eldar book. Personally, I'm not sure the shield really needs a shooting profile at all, but making the current profile 6" does wonders for balancing the serpent. You could still zoom in and unload a pretty nasty amount of firewpower, but you'd be exposing yourself to assault by doing so. I kind of like the idea of simply having the serpent shield reduce pens to glances on a roll of X, and then have a toned down version of the offensive shield be unlocked by a formation or something.

Jetbikes being 4+ would help a lot, though people will probably still complain about them being fast and having bladestorm on a twin-linked gun. Personally, I think they'd be fine if they went back to their 4th edition points cost. In the new book, they both went down in points and got better as a result of 6th/7th edition rules and bladestorm. Their old cost makes them reasonably expensive to field without taking away their teeth.

Wraith Knights really should be Lords of War. Not only does it make them less spammable, but it also matches the fluff of them being extremely difficult to create (needing a pair of half-dead twins, having to actually construct the thing, and so on). I'd be fine with them getting some sort of formation that lets you take multiples of them. The formation would just need to be pricey or somehow restrict you from taking multiples of them in lower points games.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
While you are at it, make Ion Accelerators cost 30pts. Markerlights reduce cover rather then remove it. Remove the Ignore Cover Order from imperial guard. Make invisibility 3 Warp Charges. Cap Flyrants at 2. Make grav-weapons range 6, 12 and 18.

40K is not a balanced game. If your nerfing Eldar without touching the other ridiculous tripe, your showing your bias.

I agree with every comment made in that statement, and I am a Tau and Nid player, but I do agree.

I don't know about the wraith knight. Maybe an Avatar LOW? Jetbikers should be a fast Attack choice with an Autarcch on a bike making them troops and a 4+ as well

There are certainly more changes I'd love to make. But these were a minimalist set to try to see exactly what people thought was broken about Eldar.

You could find my long thread from a while back with most of my ideas (several have changed, such as Bladestorm).

I had a fixed my Eldar thread too, its how in run them, and they are awesome!

They are a lot of fun.

natpri771 wrote:
I don't know about the wraith knight. Maybe an Avatar LOW? Jetbikers should be a fast Attack choice with an Autarcch on a bike making them troops and a 4+ as well

An avatar LOW would make sense and will probably happen in the next book. The thing is that the Avatar isn't being spammed left and right or considered to be especially powerful. The wraith knights are the ones that people complain about, and making them LOWs helps keep them in check. I'd argue that jetbikes kind of need to be troops as other fast attack options are rather more appealing than they are, but making them troops via a bike'taurch seems both reasonable and fluffy to me.