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I used to use the old Ral Partha paints, which were really paints made by Genesis Gaming Products, which I mixed myself when I worked there.

But when I had to replace everything, I bought Vallejo, since they were readily available, and pretty much the only thing but GW available (and the GW paints were twice the price).

I did not realize at the time, because I was only painting 15mm historicals that the paints tended to be pretty grainy when drybrushing, due to how fast they dry (a drybrush blends better if the paint underneath it is still somewhat wet).

I have thought about just buying some retarder, which I should do anyway.

But does anyone have any recommendations for paints that are basically ok without having to buy specialized thinners, or retarder a (I also discovered that many of the Vallejo colors don't wash very well unless using their thinner - water seems insufficient).

Also.... Inks... The few inks I have used leave a very glossy appearance that does not go completely away even after hitting it with a coat of matte sealer or clear coat.

Does anyone have any suggestions for inks?

MB

No advice for 'new paints' but I use Vallejo and have no problems. I use a wet pallet and perhaps that is the difference. I find Vallejo quite thick and can be watered down quite a lot before any problems arise.

I put a drop or 2 of paint on the wet pallet then put an old paint brush in a tub of clean water and then use that brush (still wet) to mix the paint, whether it needs mixing or not. This seems to thin the paint enough for any purpose short of air brushing.

Citadel paints are thinner out of the pot (especially layer paints), and P3 paints dry slightly slower.

You may wish to experiment with citadel dry brush paints, which give fantastic mileage and go on quite nicely and consistently.

Also, consider Citadel washes, which are outstanding. Citadel paints can be made into glazes using Lahmian Medium (which aren't exactly the same thing, but can behave similarly).

No acrylic paints make good washes with just water -- you end up with little ringlets as the watered down paint dries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ravenflight wrote:
No advice for 'new paints' but I use Vallejo and have no problems. I use a wet pallet and perhaps that is the difference. I find Vallejo quite thick and can be watered down quite a lot before any problems arise.

I put a drop or 2 of paint on the wet pallet then put an old paint brush in a tub of clean water and then use that brush (still wet) to mix the paint, whether it needs mixing or not. This seems to thin the paint enough for any purpose short of air brushing.

For drybrushing, this just gets the brush wet though, which is undesirable. I use a wet palette too, but for drybrushing, I use a sheet of acrylic (plastic is fine too) to work the paint into the brush. The idea is to have a little bit of paint in all the bristles, and no water. That way when the brush hits raised surfaces, bits of paint adhere but as the brush moves, you get no brushstroke of paint. To achieve that you need the brush to be nearly paint free so that once a part of a brush hits a surface there's no more paint there, and then also no water so that the paint doesn't run.

 Talys wrote:
Citadel paints are thinner out of the pot (especially layer paints), and P3 paints dry slightly slower.

You may wish to experiment with citadel dry brush paints, which give fantastic mileage and go on quite nicely and consistently.

Also, consider Citadel washes, which are outstanding. Citadel paints can be made into glazes using Lahmian Medium (which aren't exactly the same thing, but can behave similarly).

No acrylic paints make good washes with just water -- you end up with little ringlets as the watered down paint dries.

Don't fully agree with this. I use a glazing medium with acrylics and it works fine. Some don't I admit, but most do.

 Talys wrote:

 ravenflight wrote:
No advice for 'new paints' but I use Vallejo and have no problems. I use a wet pallet and perhaps that is the difference. I find Vallejo quite thick and can be watered down quite a lot before any problems arise.

I put a drop or 2 of paint on the wet pallet then put an old paint brush in a tub of clean water and then use that brush (still wet) to mix the paint, whether it needs mixing or not. This seems to thin the paint enough for any purpose short of air brushing.

For drybrushing, this just gets the brush wet though, which is undesirable. I use a wet palette too, but for drybrushing, I use a sheet of acrylic (plastic is fine too) to work the paint into the brush. The idea is to have a little bit of paint in all the bristles, and no water. That way when the brush hits raised surfaces, bits of paint adhere but as the brush moves, you get no brushstroke of paint. To achieve that you need the brush to be nearly paint free so that once a part of a brush hits a surface there's no more paint there, and then also no water so that the paint doesn't run.

I don't dry brush with the watered down medium directly... you then act as if it were paint 'out of the pot' by drawing off the paint on a dry piece of paper or similar. I'm not sure what changes within the paint by adding water and then taking it away, but it does work.

Well, at least for me.

I do more layering these days anyway, but I'm not foreign to dry brushing.

I love Tamiya's range of paints..I do alot of military models and now airbrushing, and their paints work very well..not to expensive with a big assortment...and they even smell nice

The inventor of water based acrylic paints:
http://www.liquitex.com/US/
More fancy stuff than you can shake a stick at like inks:
http://www.liquitex.com/Resources/AcrylicLiterature.aspx
Paint seems to keep forever too.

i am firmly in the P3 (from Privateer Press) paint camp...
i love them!!!
i use their paints, washes, and inks...

i don't use thinner, medium, or retarder...
for washes, other than P3 Flesh Wash (which i don't actually use on flesh, but on my golds and reds) and Armor Wash, i just use water and paint...
for glazes, i use inks and water...
for drybrushing (which i pretty much only use on the base's sand), i just dip the brush in the undiluted paint a tad, and then wipe it off on a paper towel...

i paint straight from the pot for anything other than washing and glazing, unless i am mixing a custom color on my ceramic tile...
i hardly thin my paints at all (just a tiny dip of the brush, with a touch of paint on the tip, in a water drop on my tile), and don't use a wet palette...
i basically break every rule of painting that you will read about, and still get good results, but then i've always been a rebel, and a rule-breaker...

my philosophy is: mess around until you find a way of working that fits your approach to painting, and the look you want to achieve...
there are no hard and fast rules, as far as i'm concerned, just what works for you...

for example, Talys has just stated that no acrylic paints make good washes with just water, as if that is an irrefutable fact, yet i do it all the time without any ringlets showing up...
that's nothing against Talys, just that my experience is different...
in my opinion, it's all about what works for you...

i personally dislike the idea of rules in art, which is why i don't own a color wheel, or bother with studying color theory...
the eye knows what looks good, unless you are color blind...

that was a bit of a rant, but my point is, play around, and have fun...

as to your issue, i don't think i've ever seen drybrushing not look slightly grainy on flatter surfaces like armor plates, even after some washes or glazes on top...
it works well enough on fur, chainmail, hair and gravel for a rush job, but still, i prefer to just use it on gravel, and layer the rest for a clean look...
as far as i see it, it's a choice between high-quality, or high-speed...

cheers
jah

I drybrush 80% of my stuff..including on curved and flat surfaces..and I use a process of building up the color..I dont think it looks grainy and most my buddies use to think I used a airbrush

couple pics for example.






Infact I usually have to add a bleach bone..dun..or khaki brushing over the main colors to tone down the crispness.

It just takes alot of time..and soft paint brushes.

 ravenflight wrote:

Don't fully agree with this. I use a glazing medium with acrylics and it works fine. Some don't I admit, but most do.

You misunderstood me. I said, water makes for poor washes to acrylic paint; glazing medium, obviously, is different

@jah -- I'm not saying it's impossible to thin an acrylic paint with water and let it fall into crevices. But I do think it's pretty hard to argue that doing so, especially if you wash large areas, you'll get as good results as if you use a wash (or some medium added to paint). Also, I'm with you on P3 being great paints.

Well.... I managed to make it to an art supply before they closed, and bought some Vallejo retarder.

That seems to help, and it revealed some other problems that could have a lot to do with things.

Primarily, I was using too dark a wash on my Orc Flesh tones (yellowish and dark brown flesh tones), and lightening the wash, and using mostly thinner, with a tiny dot of retarder, along with a little bit of water seems to produce a consistency that my muscle-memory is familiar with.

The tug on the brush felt "familiar" when doing a drybrush.

And the drybrush itself I made sure to thin with thinner, and apply a tiny bit of retarder.

This kept the first layer of the drybrush paint soft for the highlighting drybrush so that it would blend better.

I am still trying to paint too quickly, as well.

The retarder helped to slow me down as well, since one of the things that causes me to rush is how quickly the Vallejo paints dry (I've timed a single brush stroke that has been thinned with water 50/50 as taking around 90 seconds to dry to a state that is effectively unworkable). Times tend to vary depending upon the color, but even Vallejo's website says that it's model colors will dry very quickly, and recommends a retarder if not airbrushing.

I will have to look into some of the other paints.

I had used some Tamiya, but they had separated so badly that they were nearly unusable. They did make for excellent washes because of that separation, though.

The guy at the model shop said that he takes a bent nail and uses it in a moto-tool to re-mix the Tamiya paints, and after they have been reconstituted, I might tend to like them, as they are very much like the old Poly-S railroad colors (paints) made from the 1930's - 1980's, before Tamiya bought them in the 90's.

I will have to go buy a few of them, and re-mix them as suggested.

I have toyed with the idea of trying GW paints, but they are so much more expensive than other paints.

As for Liquitex.... I used them for my first few miniatures, but I owned them for 2D artwork, and found that they did not cover very well.

But I will go try a few to see if they have changed, as well as looking into the other recommendations.

MB

Tamiya paints are alcohol-based and dry so fast that it's not funny. The metallic go on very thinly, though, as a bonus.

Remember, you should not have to pay more than 75% of list price on GW paints. Give GW and P3 a go -- and remember, because the GW drybrush paints are all paint and hardly any medium, one pot will last you a very long time. After a kazillion models, I've only ever finished 2 pots of GW drybrush (necron compound and terminatus stone).

however you guys choose to paint is up to you, and fine by me...
like i said, no rules in art, as far as i'm concerned...

@Soo'Vah'Cha: first of all, big up Alaska, and Anchorage!!!
i used to spend my summers and Christmas break in Spenard in the 80's, when that place was still like the Wild West...
many hours of good times at Bosco's...
i'll be heading up to Fairbanks this summer, where i've worked on Fort Wainwright...
everyone trips out to see a guy with 4-foot dreadlocks working on base...

anyway, i said "slightly grainy", not full on chunky...
take the housing on your Devilfish's burst cannon, for example...
it looks drybrushed...
that is not a bad thing, especially for a gaming piece...
i paint with competition and display quality in mind, which is a whole other beast...

like i said, to me, different techniques work for different surfaces...
that doesn't mean you have to subscribe to my theories...
for instance, i choose to pretty much only use drybrushing on the base's sand...
i also choose not to use an airbrush, because i am still trying to perfect my use of hairy sticks...
i don't expect anyone to share my painting philosophy...

@Talys: why would i use washes on large surfaces, when i can just run the wash along the crevices???
my main use of the "all-over" wash is the initial heavy shading on an infantry sized model...
aside from the crevices, all of the surfaces get cleaned up with the basecoat again, then all of the shadows and highlights get painted in by hand...
to bring it all together at the end, i use an ink glaze, not a wash...
my ink glaze is about 15 drops of water to one drop of ink, and tints the surface with about 5-10 passes of the mix, very lightly loaded on the brush...
point being, it IS possible to get good results without anything more complicated than acrylic and water...

my P&M blog shows the steps that i use, both on a display quality piece (the Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest) and a tabletop quality piece (the Ultramarines Stormraven)...
no additives, no wet palette, no airbrush, nothing fancy, just a little paint and very simple techniques...

anyway, i am not trying to say that anyone's way is better, worse, wrong, or right...
i was just saying that i dislike the idea of hard and fast rules of technique, and that i think it's all about playing around and seeing what works for each individual...
let's just all have fun, and, like Bob Ross, enjoy the happy accidents...
maybe put a happy tank on that hill...
hahahahahahaha

cheers
jah

apple barrel acrylic paints.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
apple barrel acrylic paints.

he said "Better" paints, not "cheap crap" paints.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
apple barrel acrylic paints.

he said "Better" paints, not "cheap crap" paints.

They work fine for me.

Anecdotes aside, craft paints are the bottom of the barrel as far as quality paints go. I guess poster paint would be worse though.

I would sooner stab myself in the face with a fork than use craft paints.

I did buy some retarder, and fluid retarder (a thinner/retarder mix - this will be perfect for drybrushes and washes to keep the foundation slightly workable).

The issues I am having stem from my older painting style of being able to work on several miniatures at once.

With the drying times of the newer paints, this is just very difficult to do, and it is slowing me down in more ways than one.

First, it is slowing me down by forcing me to work on one miniature at a time, and then only a small portion of that miniature.

Then it is slowing me down by not getting what I think are acceptable results, which make me despondent, and thus sap my focus and concentration in painting.

One of the things that allowed me to paint when I was younger, to such a high quality, even en masse, was a confidence in my skill.

That is pretty much gone, and I feel as if I am stumbling in the dark.

The last few miniatures I did showed better results (but still with flaws in a few places that are driving me crazy), and thus have offered some encouragement.

I am hoping that when I go to do some painting tonight, using the new medium additions, that it will help build even more confidence.

This unit I am doing is going to look "OK," but it will be shabby compared to my now missing armies and figures.

But I am pretty confident that the remaining units for this army will look better.

And when I get the sculpts finished for my Goblins and Mid-Third Age Gondorians, and get some paint on them, that my confidence will begin to return.

MB

I'm not really sure what you mean by a new painting style being a model at a time.

I usually paint 3-10 infantry sized models at a time, and I never have a problem with paint or brushes. When I layer or basecoat, I use a wet palette, and when I drybrush, I use a regular palette.

My bigger issue with drybrushing is that if I do a lot, terrain or Necron for instance, or even a set of 10 bases, I will want to rinse the brush out in between (or change colors) and then the brush is damp for a good 20 minutes. For this reason, I keep a bug bundle if drybrushes and swap every time I have to clean the brush.

What kind of brush do you use for drybrushing? The ideal type most recommend is a coarse hair, stiff brush. I use the citadel o ed for DB.

For most of my drybrushing, I use a rounded or pointed Filbert brush with hog bristles (which are actually quite fine).

For more specialized drybrushing (such as doing a wet-to-dry brush on flesh (which has been my current hang-up - the next will be doing metallics, as that is my next area of concentration, once I get my flesh tones back in shape) I use a normal rounded brush made out of either sable or hog bristle, depending upon whether I am working on one figure at a time, or many (the sable allows more control, and blends better, but the hog bristle can be abused more).

And for doing armor, I have tended to use a flat brush, or a very used, long-bristled Filbert that has been worn down into a rounded tip, rather than the Flat tip of the flat brush, or the more pointed flat brush of the Filbert.

I think the following things have resolved the paint and flesh painting issues:

1) SLOW the F*** down!
2) For the time being, work on only one miniature (the addition of the retarder will probably allow me to bump that back up to four to eight, which is my usual number)
3) Quit using water as a thinner. Use a mix of water and thinner if I have to (I bought a half-pint of medium and thinner today).
4) Try not to use such a dark contrasting wash for the flesh-tones, regardless of the color... For instance, I have some bluish Orcs, and some of them I got the wash too dark. The couple that have the lighter wash look freaking awesome (if you ignore the few blotches that are simply the result of clumsy brush control from having "not ridden that bike" in a long while.
5) Thin my base colors more, and add a retarder to allow me to clean up any areas where color is clumping... I noticed that many of my "brown" shields look very clumpy (Vallejo's Browns, prior to 2010 were pretty thick).


And, lastly:
6) THROW OUT my older paints and buy new ones. The older paints thicken and get dried chunks in them, making for difficult to control medium.

I figure for $40 I can get a complete set of colors for Fantasy (and thus Ancients/Medeivals) and Miltary (WWII to Sci-Fi) miniatures that will have a better consistency than my 13 year old Vallejos (technically, only about ⅓ of them are 13 years old. I bought a lot of new paints in 2010 - 2014).

MB

Please look at other methods out there.
It was a bit of a revolution with the specialty washes.
Agreed those small clumps are the best way to ruin a paint job.
I bought a bag of stainless steel bearings and drop them in my paint pots, they work great for smoothing out paints.
Well good luck, it appears you have a particular style you need the paints to conform to.

It might be time for you to advance beyond using only drybrushing.

You are making everything so incredibly difficult for yourself because you are hung up on doing everything one particular way. Drybrushing is a technique in what should be an arsenal, it's not a style to be used all the time everywhere.

I also have a feeling that the amount of detail that exists on models now compared to 13 years ago is something else getting in the way of your drybrushing.

I almost exclusively use Reaper's Master Series paints, I think they work very well (although I use Vallejo primer, varnish, and additives)l. Army Painter's quickshade inks work well (and some say the Strong Tone wash works the exact same as the old GW Devlan Mud).

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Anecdotes aside, craft paints are the bottom of the barrel as far as quality paints go.

Anecdotes like "they work fine", "I get good results with them", and "they're no worse than some mini paints"? Will enough of those anecdotes transform into a trend or statistic and convince you? There was a recent topic about here somewhere...

And isn't 'bottom of the barrel' an anecdote too?

Anyways, since BeAfraid would rather stab himself in the face, and doesn't like any of the other obvious candidates, I'm not sure what to suggest. From previous experience I'm going to guess it'd have to be some pure acrylic copolymer emulsion hand-squeezed by Rohm and Haas themselves, with only the finest lapis lazuli hand-ground by authentic badakhshanian peasant folk, gently folded in.

If you're getting issues with clumping and drying while drybrushing acrylics, have you considered using enamels? I personally don't use enamels to drybrush because, well, I don't really drybrush much anymore and most my paints are acrylic... however enamels dry slower and don't clump as much. I've seen some really good results of people drybrushing with enamels.

That said you can get pretty good results with acrylics too.

I'd be interested to see some pics of your models to get an idea of what sort of effects you are getting now and also where it might be falling short so perhaps we can help you out more.

Drybrushing can be quite a good technique but most people don't do it very well because it's often one of the techniques people are introduced to early when their skills aren't great. To do it right it's actually rather time consuming.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

They work fine for me.

I'll just leave this here for context...

BeAfraid wrote:
I used to use the old Ral Partha paints, which were really paints made by Genesis Gaming Products, which I mixed myself when I worked there.

But when I had to replace everything, I bought Vallejo, since they were readily available, and pretty much the only thing but GW available (and the GW paints were twice the price).

I did not realize at the time, because I was only painting 15mm historicals that the paints tended to be pretty grainy when drybrushing, due to how fast they dry (a drybrush blends better if the paint underneath it is still somewhat wet).

I have thought about just buying some retarder, which I should do anyway.

But does anyone have any recommendations for paints that are basically ok without having to buy specialized thinners, or retarder a (I also discovered that many of the Vallejo colors don't wash very well unless using their thinner - water seems insufficient).

Also.... Inks... The few inks I have used leave a very glossy appearance that does not go completely away even after hitting it with a coat of matte sealer or clear coat.

Does anyone have any suggestions for inks?

MB

vallejo drybrushes fine for me. even model air. try hitting the paint on your pallet with the hair dryer for a few seconds so it goes more tacky then dry brush with it.

well ya, for washes, water is insufficient for all brands. trying to make washes with water is amateur hour. you need a proper thinner with acrylic polymer emulsion. and generally you should be making washes with ink not paint.

dunno, vallejo inks are the best Ive ever tried. they are amazing. never had any problem sealing them with testors dullcote.

 Talizvar wrote:
Please look at other methods out there.
It was a bit of a revolution with the specialty washes.
Agreed those small clumps are the best way to ruin a paint job.
I bought a bag of stainless steel bearings and drop them in my paint pots, they work great for smoothing out paints.
Well good luck, it appears you have a particular style you need the paints to conform to.

Doh! Bearings!

What a f***ing great idea.

I will go buy some Monday morning (I doubt that I can find any on Sunday, but will look).

And, as for my painting style... I am not stuck in any ruts. Anything that proves to work, I will try.

The only thing that I won't use is anything that leaves obvious paint strokes (unless as a part of an effect, meant to look like paint strokes).

But that has been my biggest issue, in that the paints I have been able to find since 2000 all have issues with consistency (Vallejo and Reaper seem to have understood this, and since 2010, as I have mentioned, their paints have been more fluid, with a highlighter medium content, making the paints smoother and thinner).

I have become incredibly pressed for time, what with having school (classes I am taking at Junior Colleges just to fill time and keep my student loans at bay until I can get back to UCLA), work (sculpting miniatures on spec for an eventual Kickstarter, and possible 3D game cut-scenes), and having medical issues that have resulted in having to sue a doctor.

But I try to spend free time searching YouTube for painting tutorials, which has not been wasted time (which was where I learned about the newer paints being thinner, and containing more medium - plus I called an old friend who used to run the paint manufacturing for Reaper).

At this point... I am just trying to get the stuff I have already begun finished, and as cleaned up as I can get, before starting on fresh units (these would be the Ral Partha 1979 Goblins, and Thunderbolt Mountain Great Goblins - A total of six units of the great Goblins, and 8 units of the Lesser Goblins, not counting Trolls and Wolf-Riders... Not to mention the mountain of GW LotR miniatures... Mostly Rohirrim at the moment) using newer paints and being less rushed.

MB

This thread has got me thinking of doing something that has been in the back of my mind for quite some time... try to assemble a "complete" paint chip collection of all relevant brand. It will take me quite some time and money but with some voluntary contributions it might be doable.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
If you're getting issues with clumping and drying while drybrushing acrylics, have you considered using enamels? I personally don't use enamels to drybrush because, well, I don't really drybrush much anymore and most my paints are acrylic... however enamels dry slower and don't clump as much. I've seen some really good results of people drybrushing with enamels.

That said you can get pretty good results with acrylics too.

I'd be interested to see some pics of your models to get an idea of what sort of effects you are getting now and also where it might be falling short so perhaps we can help you out more.

Drybrushing can be quite a good technique but most people don't do it very well because it's often one of the techniques people are introduced to early when their skills aren't great. To do it right it's actually rather time consuming.

I have actually considered going back to enamels.

For a short period in 1985 - 1987, I did all of my Space Marines and Space Orcs in Humbrol Enamels, and they remain among the best stuff I ever did (Winning 1st Place in the 1986 Origins Painting competition - the last one I got to compete in, as they began excluding "professionals" - which then meant something: people who worked for the miniature companies painting their display models).

But it became too much work to keep my brushes in shape (I had very poor brush discipline with cleaning them properly after use), and the cost of brushes became pretty extravagant.

But I have considered returning to using enamels, since they are vastly more durable than are acrylics. And they work considerably easier and more smoothly.

It would be a considerable investment, and it would require me finding a more dedicated area in which to paint (something I do not currently have), but I do know that I would get better results.

I have a few photos I plan to upload soon of the disastrous Thunderbolt Mountain Great Goblins (decent photos with my newer DSLR). They are not "horrible," but they fall significantly short of my best work.

The last few elements/bases I painted look significantly better than the earlier ones I painted in the middle of last year. But that is two - three elements out of nine (They are based for Field of Glory or Hoplon, and thus are based 2 - 4 miniatures to an 80x30mm to 80x40mm base).

MB

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

They work fine for me.

I'll just leave this here for context...

Very cool. Using this technique, you can not only save lots of money on paints, but you can also save lots of time on skipping mold line removal. Perhaps someone will even pay millions for it, being an impressionist interpretation of Captain Karlaen shortly after being hit by a Toxicrene.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone really prime their bases white?