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Hello all,

I am new to this forum and the president of HC&D Supplies. We were the first company that I know of to release a neoprene space mat designed for use with X-Wing. The response to that mat has been so well received that I've decided to make other terrain mats. The thing is, I am admittedly not an avid miniature player and because of this, the first mat we released was a bit of a failure (image was too busy and distracting). The reason is that we didn't ask the actual players what it is they would like to see in a mat. Now, I realize that when you are talking about a space mat for a particular game (X-Wing) it is much easier to get a general consensus than if you are releasing say a "jungle" terrain mat for use with many different systems. That being said, I am trying to design mats that will appeal to the largest audience possible. With that in mind, I wanted to ask the people that matter what they think of our designs before we actually print them. Any input you might have is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Shane

Edit: Here are the new jungle mat and urban images. Still a work in progress, but wanted to get impressions.

Well, outside of X Wing, 36"x36" isn't a terribly common typical size, so you may want to investigate producing 48"x48" (Warmachine) or 72"x48" (40K and most other systems)

Are these mouse pad types?

36x36 will cover a few skirmish games, Malifaux being the one that I would be interested in these mats for.

Malifaux is a more sinister steampunk theme, so a darker, deader mat, swamp mat, wild west style mats would be better sellers. Jungle theme is a little to vibrant for that setting.

I personally have been looking for a good 36x36 mousepad style mat that would fit in well for a graveyard theme.

I believe Batman is also played on a 36x36

I don't think the blue for water will be of any use. What can it be used for? Dreadfleet maybe? You want widest audience possible so no water maps.

The green is to fantasy, so not sure if it will do good for 40K. Maybe more dark greens like you have in the upper left corner will be better for 40K. It's too bright. So more for Fantasy and LotR.

Desert is ok for 40K, but doesn't really appeal to me for some reason. I guess I don't really care for sandy terrain. Unless I am playing Star Wars on Tatooine just doesn't seem right. Again you want widest audience. So I can be wrong, but don't think that will be the way to go.

How about a cross between the green grass and city scape a bit. Maybe more craters or burnt terrain for your grass mat?

Also the size as was mentioned is a good point. You can't use the same 3'X3' like in X-Wing. 40K is mostly played on a 4'X6'. So how will this effect product and production?

One thing I don't see on maps is borders. Not sure if it's good to have a boarder so people can have a place to put in their dice and templates so it's off the map sort of to speak. Then again we are not playing Magic but it could be good for people who play Warmahordes. A nice place to put their cards. Need to test it out and see what people think.

A few of my ideas and thoughts. Good luck.

Also it comes down to price and shipping costs as well.

 Desubot wrote:
Are these mouse pad types?

Yes, these will be 2mm thick mouse pad material.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I hear you all on the size. Are there any popular games that play on 36 x 36 besides X-Wing?

As for the 48 x 48 size, the end pricing for that would end up being around $55. Do you think that will fly?

Also, do the terrains need additional elements like roads or lakes?

Thanks.

Well, I personally think that you've gone a little too simple with those mats.

If I am going to be putting terrain onto the mat, I don't want it to be too cluttered with details that don't look right if they are half-obscured by a 3D terrain element. On the other hand, if I am using a mat, I want it to do something for me other than be a pretty color.

I want a mat that might suggest elements that I could incorporate into a scenario or terrain setup, such as subtle path, trail, or road. I want something that might suggest a little bit of topography here or there. And I want those elements to be asymmetrical so that I a rotation of the mat might freshen up the design. I want some little details that might help to give a sense of scale, but without marrying the mat to a particular scale.

Deep-Cut Studio has some nice mat designs. The Wasteland, Field, and Snow theme mats are reasonably well designed.

The PWork Deadland, Badlands, and Seas of War mats are also very nice.

I agree with weeble, these are pretty plain, cluttered is bad, but there's just nothing on these to catch the eye.

HCD wrote:
Hello all,

I am new to this forum and the president of HC&D Supplies. We were the first company that I know of to release a neoprene space mat designed for use with X-Wing. The response to that mat has been so well received that I've decided to make other terrain mats. The thing is, I am admittedly not an avid miniature player and because of this, the first mat we released was a bit of a failure (image was too busy and distracting). The reason is that we didn't ask the actual players what it is they would like to see in a mat. Now, I realize that when you are talking about a space mat for a particular game (X-Wing) it is much easier to get a general consensus than if you are releasing say a "jungle" terrain mat for use with many different systems. That being said, I am trying to design mats that will appeal to the largest audience possible. With that in mind, I wanted to ask the people that matter what they think of our designs before we actually print them. Any input you might have is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Shane

I think someone might have beaten you to it. http://store.frontlinegaming.org/fat-mats

Instead of a jungle theme, you need to do more of a rolling feilds style look.

Pavement is another popular mat theme people like because it's good for setting buildings ontop of for urban combat games. Most mats have streets drawn on them, but in all honesty a pavement look you can freely scatter buildings on it my group's preferred style.

I don't know how much use you would get out of a water mat. I don't use it at all, but others may be in a different boat!

The Jungle Mat is simply too plain, especially for a JUNGLE. I would recommend adding common Jungle elements, but making sure that none are too big (and thus, too intrusive on a mat):

Areas of thick vines/creepers/liana
dense vegetation
jungle flowers
Fallen trees
a pool or water or two
tree roots

Fundamentally, you need to assume that someone using a jungle board will probably place a lot of trees on the mat (otherwise, why are they using a jungle board), but there's a lot of
'minor terrain' that is much better portrayed on a mat than by deployment. For instance, dense vegetation is very hard to actually deploy troops on, so it makes sense to have a flat representation of that. Things like pools of water (not big ponds or anything) and tree roots are also in this category. I would suggest jungle flowers just because I don't think i've ever seen them on a board, and something unique really helps. Skeletons with vines growing out of them, or some other cool detail would work as well.

The sand mat looks really good, but, again, if it is going to be this plan, I could save cash and just lay down some beige felt. There needs to be some interesting details that don't dictate the usage of the board:

Shallow dry river beds
dried up pond (cracked mud and fish skeletons)
small rock outcroppings with sand blown around them
tumbleweeds, short cacti, or low scrub
dried out cattle carcass or bison skulls
footprints in the sand (or even rattlesnake tracks)

As above, you should have some things to add visual interest to the board, without being things that would play a major factor in a game (those need to be added by the gamers with scatter terrain). Adding something like cow skeletons can be risky, as you run the chance of narrowing down the setting too much (if I'm using it for Tattooine, I might not want a dried up steer on the board), but they can also give it character. I'd love to see a human skeleton in rags, posed as if were crawling towards water, myself!

I wish you luck, but these mats look like someone has just taken the same graphic elements (good resolution ones, though) and repeated them all over the board. I'm sure that's a less expensive design process, but, especially if you are asking $50 or more for the mat, I don't know that I would see it as a good value myself.

IF you could sell the 4x4 mats for 55 shipped, id buy a few in a heart beat.

Here is what id like to see...

4x4 Urban mats. Streets or just pavement type terrain. If you do roads, do them at a slant so corners to corners and make the roads have curves. I hate seeing urban street maps where everything is a square and all blocky. This can really cater to Infinity Players, and theres quite a bit of them.

4x4 rolling plains, dead earth, would be great. Id use it for epic/6mm games.

As others have said.. these are just too plain. The big question is, why should I buy these over the competition? There are companies now making incredibly good looking game mats for reasonable prices.

Also, ditch the water board.. the chances of someone playing a water-based game is extremely low.

As for the water board comments dystopian wars and a large number of historical naval games are widely played but you would need to bum it up to a 6'x4' and have a far better texture.

I get that the previous iteration was too cluttered and busy, but to echo other comments, these are too plain (and water is not likely to be a big seller). More texture and variation would do you well.

That Frontline Gaming link is good for reference:

http://store.frontlinegaming.org/fat-mats

I think the textures are all nice, but I also think it's a good example of some mats done well and some mats done poorly. The Barren Wasteland, Swamp, and to some extent the Western mats are all good examples of the kind of variation I'd like to see in a mat. Nothing too distracting, nothing forcing you into any particular terrain setup to avoid clashing with the mat.

The rest of them (Alpine, Grassy Plain, and especially Urban) all have either high-contrast areas that are distracting and would look strange half-covered up with terrain, or in the case of the Urban streets, have clearly delineated streets and blocks that basically dictate how you have to set up your buildings. That might be fine for some people, but I personally would prefer an urban mat with a more generic cracked/potholed/cratered asphalt texture to it where I could set my buildings up however I like.

Perhaps for urban mats, doing both would sell. People like me who have based their buildings so they already have "city blocks" don't need them printed on our mats, while people who have urban scatter terrain and unbased buildings might want blocks printed on their mat - I think the Urban Combat mat in that link is pretty good for that, but it's a little plain and not chaotic enough - more rubble spilling over and cracks/craters in the pavement and whatnot would be good.

Also I think $55 is fair for a quality 4x4 mat.

In general I guess I would want a middle ground on a lot of things:
- textures that are evocative of what you're trying to represent and have enough detail to be attractive, but aren't literal images of 3D things like foliage or rocky ridges or city blocks that you couldn't half-cover in terrain without making it look weird (like Alpine and Urban in the link above)
- variations in texture and color that are wide enough to be attractive and look like a random natural scene, while not being so wide or stark that again it throws you off or makes it hard to place terrain over it (like Alpine and Grassy Plain in the link above)

Just one man's opinion. Hopefully that helps?

I really like the look of that green one, but yeah, 3'x3' is useless to me as a primarily Warmachine player.

I would purchase a water based map.

I would prefer one that is more based on the Atlantic though rather than the Caribbean as the majority of the Naval games around tend to be based on WW1, WW2 and the Napoleonic eras: Close Action being one of the best simulations I have ever played.

I would suggest (if it is possible) a map of colder, darker waters with white horses (wave crests) for a larger board both 48"x48" and 72"x48" - in two styles: placing hexes on it for some of the main naval war games and a plain one for other Naval games.

Please ignore those saying 'no one will buy it' because we do exist and there are actually quite a few of us mature wargamers out there who are interested in more than just Warmachine, Infinity and Warhammer

I want to see a dirty modern street layout for either modern or post apoc games. Also have the streets at an angle rather than square to the edge. Include narrow alleyways as well as standard sized-streets. Include litter, manholes, road marking, skid marks but nothing too vertical like fire hydrants.

 Wulfmar wrote:
I would purchase a water based map.

I would prefer one that is more based on the Atlantic though rather than the Caribbean as the majority of the Naval games around tend to be based on WW1, WW2 and the Napoleonic eras: Close Action being one of the best simulations I have ever played.

I would suggest (if it is possible) a map of colder, darker waters with white horses (wave crests) for a larger board both 48"x48" and 72"x48" - in two styles: placing hexes on it for some of the main naval war games and a plain one for other Naval games.

Please ignore those saying 'no one will buy it' because we do exist and there are actually quite a few of us mature wargamers out there who are interested in more than just Warmachine, Infinity and Warhammer

Seconding this

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
As for the water board comments dystopian wars and a large number of historical naval games are widely played but you would need to bum it up to a 6'x4' and have a far better texture.

Exactly!

Also, DeepWars!

I like the desert map, bu I usually use 6x4 mats.

HCD wrote:

Are there any popular games that play on 36 x 36 besides X-Wing?

I have one of your x wing mats and it is awesome. It feels thick and durable while light as a feather. Great design and vividness without being over-powered.

A number of fantasy flight games are 3x3.

With that said, I think you should really do your own research into the playing sizes of different games rather than ask here if you in the business of making gaming mats. It took a single google-fu to get a few dozen listing of top 10 and 20 miniature / tabletop games.

Asking for opinions of style makes sense though.

I think Weeblie has the right thought - more detail, but not too much. This a hobby about creating 3D stuff - too much in a matt that should be 3D is not my thing. On the other hand, things like muddy tracks that would only be a few inches in real life are great.

I have an idea. I don't think it's good but I haven't seen done before. So it's something different. Maybe a limited edition type thing.

How about a night map? Would be hard to do, Not all black, but somehow make a map but make it look like it's at night, or dawn or dusk. Could be interesting. Then again interesting doesn't pay the bills.

As for the comment there are other companies who do this. Well other companies have started up when there was GW and Dungeon and Dragons. So saying a reason not to start up because others do it, seems kind of pointless when PP and Mantic has started up against GW. Yes it's something to be leary of though.

You have to be better than your competition in something in order to sell.

So have a good price. Good or great quality. And hopefully shipping costs will not be a turn off.

 Kirasu wrote:
As others have said.. these are just too plain. The big question is, why should I buy these over the competition? There are companies now making incredibly good looking game mats for reasonable prices.

Also, ditch the water board.. the chances of someone playing a water-based game is extremely low.

They are well priced for one, much cheaper than the competition. For example their Yes album x-wing mat retails at $30 were as the other brand posted is listed as $55.

Davor wrote:
I have an idea. I don't think it's good but I haven't seen done before. So it's something different. Maybe a limited edition type thing.

How about a night map? Would be hard to do, Not all black, but somehow make a map but make it look like it's at night, or dawn or dusk. Could be interesting. Then again interesting doesn't pay the bills.

Actually, I think that would be a really cool idea, and it would be a darn good reason to use a mat. Even if my 3D terrain isn't in nighttime colors, the mat underneath could give the impression that the scenario was happening at night.

You could also sell them in pairs - the same mat in day and night, possibly with a small discount for buying both.

I think the price point is pretty darned good if a 48"x48" won't be too much more than your 36x36.

I have to echo that I think the pendulum swung a little too far toward simple on these designs. I'd like to see a little more variation in the textures, but not so much that pre measurement could become a problem in game. The textures just need a tweak in my opinion.

As a Malifaux player, 3x3 is perfect. A cobblestone street to arctic mat would be great!

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their input. The cost of the 48 x 48 inch mats is significantly more than a 36 x 36, due to the surface area (almost two times), however, I would try to keep it down as much as possible and $55 I think is very doable.

Except for bringing in the scale and showing off some non-3D details, it would seem that there is no consensus for the "best" size or type. I pretty much expected this as miniature gaming is very diverse. I think we will rework the current designs, add an urban one and probably ditch the dessert. Once we have the new designs I'll post again to get your input.

Again, thank you so much for the feedback. This is where products succeed or fail. I want to give people what they actually want, not what I think they want.

Shane