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I play Goblins and My buddy plays Orcs. We personally play 350 points and he and I just get bare basic captains and as many troops as we can fit.

We tend to have a lot of models on the field and they usually eat through the enemy which are usually rohan and minas tirith. One of the other good guys has got an elf list which features some heroes, but my goblin force outnumbers them hugely. I personally think they should try focus on getting more bodies on the field, but he reckons heroes are well worth their cost.

Are they worth taking, or is it better to simply focus on getting heaps of bodies to hold a formation better?

Every combat turns into a mess after a few turns of fighting and our numbers simply exploit any gap we make (with the help of a troll) and thats without dropping heaps of points on heroes.

Well, it rather hugely depends on the army, the player and the opposition. For forces like Goblins, you are probably best off taking cheap heroes and more troops, so as better to make use of your already-great numbers advantage. However, for armies with a lower model-count or that are a bit more fragile, they can be essential to adding some concentrated power. For example, a High Elf Warband led by a Captain is far less scary that one led by Glorfindel, Elrond or Gil-galad, and a Dwarf battle line with Dain at the centre is going to be pretty hard to dislodge.

NEVER underestimate how powerful Heroic actions can be. Part of the reason Heroes are priced at a level that would seem high for just their combat prowess (Boromir is never going to kill 175 points of Orcs in one game) is the Might Points they have, which can have a huge effect on the battle. Using a Heroic Move to get a double-move (last one turn, first the next) with Cavalry gives you a 20" threat range, calling a Heroic Combat to catapult your beatstick into helping out their allies can be life-saving, and even just calling a Heroic Strike and burning a MP or two to put down a Monster faster can change the outcome of the game. Learning when and how to use Might is hard, but once you get the hang of it, you'll find your heroes worth more than their weight in gold.

This is doubly true of cheap named Heroes, the likes of Madril, Gorbag, Grishnak ect who tend to have 3M rather than 2 for the same price as a Captain (2M), sometimes at the expense of a Fate point. Heroic Moves in particular are key for getting position, reforming after an attack or taking advantage of an opening, and getting 3 for the price of 2 is great.

But, does this really help when they have as little as 15 models on the field?

Yes and no (sorry, that's probably terribly unhelpful!)

It helps in that you can quite feasibly get your whole army in rang of a Heroic Action, which is basically free Priority for a turn, and at smaller points levels, the Hero themselves can have more impact on the game (going back to Boromir, it's not unreasonable to expect a kill a turn once he reaches combat. Not amazing in bigger games, but a far more impactful figure in small games). They are also a decent counter to Monsters, which can be brutal in smaller games otherwise.

On the other hand, more boys before Heroes can give you a similarly proportionally higher Break point (although less Stand Fast when you do break).

Out of interest, do you use the Warband (1 Hero unlocks 12 Warriors) rules, or just have no force selection rules like that?

Yea with so many heroes I thought the question may be hard to answer.

Unfortunately we use the 1 hero 12 model rule. Which means a large chunk of my points go to captains unfortunately.

That's no bad thing. I'm guessing you have 3 Captains in a 350-point list, that's 6 Might, and some armies (Elves, some Gondor builds, Dwarves) will be hard-pressed to really match that point-for-point at that level, so that does give you a degree of control over the game from the outset.

Out of interest, have you tried Shamans at all? If not, I suggest using one when you next play in place of a Captain if you're not impressed with Combat Heroes (understandably with Goblins). Pop a Chanelled Fury (leaving 1 Will so it doesn't instantly burn out) on the first turn and be sure to surrouned him with Goblins- cheap 5-point Warriors are a lot scarier when they can shrug off 1/3 Wounds. Heroes like that can have a huge effect on the force (sadly, Good don't get cheap Spellcasters like that)

Yes I normally have 3 full squads with basic heroes and 1 cave troll. I hardly even use might etc, but its probably worth looking into.

What does the shaman actually do? I dont have many points to play around with so I never looked at anything beyond basic.

If you aren't using miught, then that could be why you're not yet seeing the value in Heroes. Given that games tend to be a bit shorter now than in the past, really don't be afraid to burn though it if it will gives you an advantage. Take another look at those rules, try them out, and you might (bad pun) see what all the fuss is about!

As for Shamans, they aren't that much more than a Captain (you should still be able to fit 2 Captains, a Troll and a Shaman in a 350 list), and offer some cheap spellcasting. They only really have one worthwhile spell, Fury, but cast the Channelled version of that (2 Will to cast, 1 Might to Channel) and you get a 3" bubble of basically FNP; you ignore any wound on any Goblin in that bubble on the roll of a 5+ that lasts until your Shaman is killed or it by Sap WIll. Pretty awesome, so again I suggest giving them a shot.

Ok I will give the Shaman a try along with actually using might.

We will see if they are worth it over hordes. I may simply be missing it.

Well maybe (for Goblins) not worth it over Hordes, but as you need to take them anyway, might as well use what they offer!

Yea I agree, since I paid the points. Waste not etc. Cheers man

I just thought I'd throw my hat into the ring on this one - Heroes are really useful, if you use them.
By that I mean actually USE them, not just treat them like a more expensive warrior. I used to play an easterling force, with only single captain in it - I hardly ever used might, and when I did it was just to win fights. Back then, My army would get mulched because of my ignorance of the advantages a well-timed heroic move or similar could have. I now use an Isengard army with a handful of captains and/or named heroes, and they really can make all the difference.

Also, I second the use of spellcasters in your army - the evil side has some great spellcasters, and goblin shamans are pretty cheap - I'd recommend proxying one in your next game and trying him out. And best of luck to you!

 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
I just thought I'd throw my hat into the ring on this one - Heroes are really useful, if you use them.
By that I mean actually USE them, not just treat them like a more expensive warrior. I used to play an easterling force, with only single captain in it - I hardly ever used might, and when I did it was just to win fights. Back then, My army would get mulched because of my ignorance of the advantages a well-timed heroic move or similar could have. I now use an Isengard army with a handful of captains and/or named heroes, and they really can make all the difference.

Also, I second the use of spellcasters in your army - the evil side has some great spellcasters, and goblin shamans are pretty cheap - I'd recommend proxying one in your next game and trying him out. And best of luck to you!

You are just like me. I have Heroes, if I use them. There are just times I forget to use Might.