Dark eldar vs. Imperial guard ... Need help please.

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**0s0ldier615**

One of the guys I play with uses IG and wipes the board whenever he plays all mech. It has gotten to the point where it has become obvious that he is holding back. I feel bad because he doesn't seem to have as much fun anymore. No one has figured out how to deal with him, and I don't want him to go and find a better group of players. He is a good guy and a challenging opponent, not to mention one of my best friends. I don't think he take off, but I want to give the guy some sort of competition.

As a dark eldar player my biggest problem with IG is their ability to ignore cover with orders. I thought if I could figure out a way to circumvent his cover saves and unload blasters and lances this would be enough, but even then I fail to glance enough vehicles to ash to make his counter attack ineffective. Other than luck, I am at a loss.

I know that the general you are facing makes all the difference in the world, and I think that I can eventually outwit him every once and while, but it is the design of his army that is like a brick wall for my DE. What is the best strategy for dark eldar when facing IG in general?

**ALEXisAWESOME**

Sorry to be the one to say this, but Lances suck against AV 12. Any other AV they can handle because high AV's count as 12, but they have less vehicles and Av 10/11 are easy to Pen. Only AV 12 gives us problems because it is cheap enough to spam and we get no cheats to deal with it.

Ergo, to beat Mech Guard you'll have to use our other forms of anti-tank. Options 1 is our best, a unit of 5 Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters. Cheap at 120pts and they will reliable knock off 2/3 hull points every time they fire. Take out Chimera first, 6 Str 6 shots is more scary then a Large Blast of Strength 8 and you also spill the tasty guardsmen on the floor.

Option 2 is Reavers, a unit of 6 with 2 Cluster Caltrops will wreck anything they hit due to high strength + Rending. Cost similar to Scourges and are much better at anti-infantry but their save IS their cover save. T4 3+/5+++ Cover/FNP is actually very durable, but with no cover save? no so much. Consider them.

Grotesques are anti-everything, as by turn 4/3 they have a lot of Str 6 attacks. They also murder Guardsmen of all sizes.

Finally do consider either a unit of 2 Talosi or the Dark Artisan formation. Imperial Guard have a hard time against Pain Engines. Give them any sort of cover save and when paired with FNP they shrug off Las-Cannons and Plasma shots by the dozen. The Dark Artisan formation will even Deepstrike into his deployment zone and shove those T7 4+ FNP re-rolling 1's monsters in his face.

So in terms of what to do now, my personal list would be
1) Scourges with Haywire
2) Talosi/Dark Artisan
3) Reavers
4) Grotesques.

**Bonachinonin**

I'm an AM player, and I feel you are in for an uphill game. I think AM are just a counter for DE. They have the magic armor 12 that lances have a very hard time against. Plus numerous bodies with high rerollable leadership or fearless. Typically when I play, the ravagers are constantly jinking or dead from turn 1. Haywire scourges get one volley before they go down. Hell hounds should be a priority for you. Nothing like killing the vehicle and the squad inside with one shot. Also if he brings vindicare assassin, that needs to die quickly. Str 10 ignores cover is too much for the vehicles.

Units I have a hard time with. Archon deep striking firedragons right behind things like pask or wyverns. Outflanking warwalkers. Basically play eldar. If that's not an option, then I think you are out of luck. Short of the talos formation (corpsethief claw?) I don't think DE has what it takes.

**CREEEEEEEEED**

I would say close as fast as you can, and get to the juicy Av10 sides. then kill all the infantry, which shouldn't be too hard, unless they are vets, who are by far the best troops in the game, in my opinion.
Do you have fliers/ this will probably help, as I remember they have good missiles, and can get around quickly to use their dark lances.

**0s0ldier615**

I have one Jetfighter. Might be looking into some bomber though.

**tankboy145**

As a guard player, do you know what he typically runs?

**koooaei**

0s0ldier615 wrote:
It has gotten to the point where it has become obvious that he is holding back...No one has figured out how to deal with him...

Play maelstorm

**sweetbacon**

I will concur with what several others have suggested by highly recommending Coven units. Specifically WWPin'g in Grotesques right into their lines and Talos supported by Cronos, so either the DA, also WWPing in and/or the Corpsethief Claw. Use the WWP to place them somewhere where they'll have cover or behind LOS when they come in, if possible. Parking lot Mech IG is usually bunched up behind an Aegis, so they aren't too difficult to multi-charge with the Grots, especially if you take larger squads of them. Give your Talos HWB, which should knock off one vehicle each turn as they move up the board. The Grots come in behind or uncomfortably close to apply pressure from a different side. Unlike Raiders/Ravagers/Venoms, Talos don't have to Jink to survive and Grots can punch anything up rear AV11 to death in CC due to their high number of attacks.

**Solar Shock**

koooaei wrote:
0s0ldier615 wrote:
It has gotten to the point where it has become obvious that he is holding back...No one has figured out how to deal with him...

Play maelstorm

Ahaha yeh interesting point

What games are you playing? maelstrom?

Also i'd consider the covens dex

CTC- so 5 scouting talos..... err yeh so your 5x 60mm bases that can multi-assault, deny a large chunk of the board and will be in range for turn 2 charges, not to mention they will weather some serious firepower.
DA - a DSing MC unit, drop it right in the middle of his list.
DSing grots in large units.

Have a look at some of Mushkilla's batreps, link; http://www.thedarkcity.net/t11700-br2-the-repugnant-ramblers-vs-serpent-spam-1250pts?highlight=TheRepugnantRamblers#131192
In that game he's playing a coven heavy list vs serpent spam, something that like AM can dish-out large amounts of High str shots, yet as you'll see he plays really effectively and uses the mission to his advantage.

I think if your not playing missions and are just lining up and firing, then his armoured lists are perfect for that, he can sit still and do what AM do best, you mentioned he is getting bored, well if you play so mission based games he himself is going to have to alter his tactics as in order to win he can't simply sit there and hope to wipe you off the board.

**0s0ldier615**

Thanks for the feedback everyone. We play maelstrom often, and like I said, he is very tactical and still holds back a lot. I had the thought of getting inside his lines a while ago, but couldn't figure out the best units to do it with. I've never been huge on the covens but you make a valid point, and the supplement has made them so much better. It is kinda what they are for. Something big? Punch the living crap out of it with poisoned fists.

Thanks again everyone, this has giving me plenty to think about for my next game with him.

Good Games.

**Solar Shock**

Yeh 0s0ldier,

I reckon that you could probably slip some nasty units into your kabal lists. A coven detachment is min 2HQ and 2Elites, so you can easily grab a couple haemies and 2 units of grotesques. You can then use say your kabals as support, hugging BLOS, bait him out a little (as its maelstrom so you can have a few central objectives to entice him out, wait till the grotesques arrive around turn 2/3 and make a move out present all your threats at once. Your grots can literally DS right into the midst of his army, preparing to multiassault his armoured vehicles. Plus as he's AM id assume its not like hes going to have a beatstick HQ/unit, So his only answer would be to potentially disembark and give you a huge volume of fire, but at T5, with FNP your going to be weathering a huge amount of fire. 10 grots is 30 wounds.

Once his troops are out you also have a target for your venoms or raiders with kabals inside.

What units do you have? / What list you thinking potentially?

**0s0ldier615**

Maybe:

Covenite Coterie Detachment:

Haemonculus with Flesh Gauntlet, WWP, and Nightmare Doll
10 x Grotesques

Haemonculus with Flesh Gauntlet and WWP
10 x Grotesques

Realspace Raiders Detachment:

HQ:
Lhamaean
In a venom with splinter cannon upgrade

Troops:
5 x Kabalite Warriors with blaster
In a venom with splinter cannon upgrade

5 x Kabalite Warriors with blaster
In a venom with splinter cannon upgrade

5 x Kabalite Warriors with blaster
In a venom with splinter cannon upgrade

Fast Attack:
5 x Scourges with 4 heywire blaster

5 x Scourges with 4 heywire blaster

5 x Scourges with 4 heywire blaster

5 x Scourges with 4 heywire blaster

5 x Scourges with 4 heywire blaster

2000 points

This will probably hurt him a bit and give me the ability to move and claim objectives. My Scourges can stay 24" away and drop his vehicles to clear a space for my Grots and haemies to pop in and say hello, Coven style. Anything that pours out of the chimeras will get destroyed by the venoms as they move from marker to marker.

Might work. Oh it is nice to have a glimmer of hope again.

**Solar Shock**

That does seem quite a fun list! You'd have so many reserves coming in and deep striking, If you could reliably hide a unit or two you could literally DS the whole thing, Could be awesome fun, blowing apart his armour and then having your grots DS right among them

So Dark and twisted

Opening the humans metal cans and unleashing the horrors of the haemonculi upon them

**Vaktathi**

0s0ldier615 wrote:
One of the guys I play with uses IG and wipes the board whenever he plays all mech. It has gotten to the point where it has become obvious that he is holding back. I feel bad because he doesn't seem to have as much fun anymore. No one has figured out how to deal with him, and I don't want him to go and find a better group of players. He is a good guy and a challenging opponent, not to mention one of my best friends. I don't think he take off, but I want to give the guy some sort of competition.

As a dark eldar player my biggest problem with IG is their ability to ignore cover with orders. I thought if I could figure out a way to circumvent his cover saves and unload blasters and lances this would be enough, but even then I fail to glance enough vehicles to ash to make his counter attack ineffective. Other than luck, I am at a loss.

I know that the general you are facing makes all the difference in the world, and I think that I can eventually outwit him every once and while, but it is the design of his army that is like a brick wall for my DE. What is the best strategy for dark eldar when facing IG in general?

Imperial Guard are typically one of the worst matchups for Dark Eldar in general, and they're usually going to have a bad time with them.

There are several reasons for this.

IG often field tons of AV12. Lances aren't ineffective against AV12, but the special rules they pay for don't do squat against AV12.

IG are T3. Poison 4+ is great against many other armies, but really crappy against T3.

IG have lots of mid-strength shooting, tons of S5/6/7 guns. All of these wound most DE infantry on 2's and ignore their saves and most FNP DE infantry may be getting (barring S5), and they still work wonderfully as anti-tank weapons against DE because everything is AV10/ or 11 at best.

IG have *lots* of the above. DE are *amazing* at taking apart big, scary monsters and ultra-elite infantry. But against lots of middling/mediocre stuff, as illustrated above, their advantages just don't come into play and they can't generate the volume of fire/attacks needed to engage such.

IG have lots of Barrage weapons that ignore LoS (that often aren't spectacularly scary against other armies but are murder against DE) which makes hiding hard.

And, of course, as you mentioned, IG can bring lots of Ignores Cover weapons which, while often ineffective against many other armies (e.g. Hellhounds vs Space Marines aren't very scary), absolutely wreck and murder Dark Eldar.

DE Close Combat units rely on skill and speed to destroy their opponents and pay a lot for that where it counts against many other armies, but neither are particularly necessary or useful against IG as opposed to simply brute power which DE often lack.

Additionally, IG can muck with your reserves if they bring an Officer of the Fleet, making reserve-denial and DS counters less effective.

IG are just historically a really powerful hard-counter to Dark Eldar in general, while Dark Eldar often do really well against the armies that excel against IG.

Your best bet honestly is to treat everything in your army as expendable, bring as much haywire/blasters as you can. The Talos formation IIRC from the Haemonculus book is super scary to most IG armies, having that outflank usually means they can't bring their full firepower against it, and it's survivable enough to last against a turn of fire, and then start crashing into the IG lines and roll up that flank.

**vipoid**

0s0ldier615 wrote:
Maybe:

Covenite Coterie Detachment:

Haemonculus with Flesh Gauntlet, WWP, and Nightmare Doll
10 x Grotesques

Haemonculus with Flesh Gauntlet and WWP
10 x Grotesques

...

I don't understand why you'd take Flesh Gauntlets over Scissorhands - let alone against IG. What exactly are you planning to ID?

Vaktathi wrote:

IG often field tons of AV12. Lances aren't ineffective against AV12, but the special rules they pay for don't do squat against AV12.

They really are. On average, it takes 9 of them to kill a Chimera in the open. That's 375pts of Ravagers and all your HS slots to kill a single 65pt transport. If said Chimera has 4+ cover, then those Ravagers will need to spend 2 entire turns shooting it.

I struggle to see how lances can be seen as effective in any way.

**Desubot**

0s0ldier615 wrote:
One of the guys I play with uses IG and wipes the board whenever he plays all mech. It has gotten to the point where it has become obvious that he is holding back. I feel bad because he doesn't seem to have as much fun anymore. No one has figured out how to deal with him, and I don't want him to go and find a better group of players. He is a good guy and a challenging opponent, not to mention one of my best friends. I don't think he take off, but I want to give the guy some sort of competition.

As a dark eldar player my biggest problem with IG is their ability to ignore cover with orders. I thought if I could figure out a way to circumvent his cover saves and unload blasters and lances this would be enough, but even then I fail to glance enough vehicles to ash to make his counter attack ineffective. Other than luck, I am at a loss.

I know that the general you are facing makes all the difference in the world, and I think that I can eventually outwit him every once and while, but it is the design of his army that is like a brick wall for my DE. What is the best strategy for dark eldar when facing IG in general?

Oi

to start if he is using ignore cover orders then something is clearly out of there transport to shoot. guys inside cant receive orders IIRC (But a can send out orders only in a chimera)

Other then that the best way i feel is just pure target saturation and going for objectives.

dont waste points trying to play his game. go for the VP, take out what you can and so on.

a quick thing would be to take reavers with Heat lances to actually do something to vehicles, or the tried and true haywire scourge and punk a vehicle a turn if they are not dead by then.

You can also do some nasty tricks with WWP

**Vaktathi**

vipoid wrote:

They really are. On average, it takes 9 of them to kill a Chimera in the open. That's 375pts of Ravagers and all your HS slots to kill a single 65pt transport. If said Chimera has 4+ cover, then those Ravagers will need to spend 2 entire turns shooting it.

I struggle to see how lances can be seen as effective in any way.

In that sense you are absolutely correct. I may not have phrased my earlier assertion quite as well as I'd have liked, but ultimately, yes, they're wasted against AV12 armor, it takes as many to kill an AV12 65pt Chimera as it does to kill a 150-200pt Leman Russ tank, and that was what I was trying to get across. I don't disagree with you at all.

As an aside, I think there's a fundamental problem with the game/fluff interaction in battles with Dark Eldar vs IG. Dark Eldar would never engage something like an IG armored column, in a pitched engagement, they would realize that's absolutely absurd, and would do everything they could to avoid that and are usually fighting on their own terms and would strike at a column on the move in hit and run attacks or simply bypass them altogether. Combat involving pitched battles with mechanized IG forces are probably battles where the DE already made a major command mistake or attacked without the element of surprise, and thus almost every 40k battle would be something where the DE are starting already from a disadvantage.

**Solar Shock**

vipoid wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

IG often field tons of AV12. Lances aren't ineffective against AV12, but the special rules they pay for don't do squat against AV12.

They really are. On average, it takes 9 of them to kill a Chimera in the open. That's 375pts of Ravagers and all your HS slots to kill a single 65pt transport. If said Chimera has 4+ cover, then those Ravagers will need to spend 2 entire turns shooting it.

I struggle to see how lances can be seen as effective in any way.

Flesh gauntlet is indeed not really required, a scissorhand would indeed be better.

But the average isn't 9, thats assuming that you are only glancing it to death. If you consider the pens and the damage table it drops down from an average of 9, plus due to lance rule, glancing to death is the same for anything greater than AV12.

Indeed they may not be the most effective, but in this case its more due to the fact that the IG have cheap armour. In this instance it is almost impossible to bring enough dark lances because you dont bring a list knowing your going to be facing all vehicles. Obviously you could know your playing IG, but he could still potentially bring another list.

**vipoid**

Solar Shock wrote:

But the average isn't 9, thats assuming that you are only glancing it to death. If you consider the pens and the damage table it drops down from an average of 9

Thing is, it takes 27 shots to explode an AV12 vehicle. So, 90% of the time, you'll have to glance it to death.

Solar Shock wrote:
plus due to lance rule, glancing to death is the same for anything greater than AV12.

But that's the thing - those are still awful odds.

Vaktathi wrote:
In that sense you are absolutely correct. I may not have phrased my earlier assertion quite as well as I'd have liked, but ultimately, yes, they're wasted against AV12 armor, it takes as many to kill an AV12 65pt Chimera as it does to kill a 150-200pt Leman Russ tank, and that was what I was trying to get across. I don't disagree with you at all.

Fair enough.

I have to say though, I find Dark Lances awful even against Leman Russ tanks. Even with the benefit of the Lance rule, there are just too many and their return fire tends to be far more effective.

Vaktathi wrote:

As an aside, I think there's a fundamental problem with the game/fluff interaction in battles with Dark Eldar vs IG. Dark Eldar would never engage something like an IG armored column, in a pitched engagement, they would realize that's absolutely absurd, and would do everything they could to avoid that and are usually fighting on their own terms and would strike at a column on the move in hit and run attacks or simply bypass them altogether. Combat involving pitched battles with mechanized IG forces are probably battles where the DE already made a major command mistake or attacked without the element of surprise, and thus almost every 40k battle would be something where the DE are starting already from a disadvantage.

That's a very good point.

I often think the same about Night Fighting - is there a reason DE would ever attack during the day?

**Alcibiades**

vipoid wrote:

I often think the same about Night Fighting - is there a reason DE would ever attack during the day?

Well, not every place has a day.

And sometimes conflicts last longer than one night.

And sometimes Dark Eldar are the ones being attacked.

**vipoid**

Alcibiades wrote:
vipoid wrote:

I often think the same about Night Fighting - is there a reason DE would ever attack during the day?

Well, not every place has a day.

Apparently every place does, for everyone can always opt to battle during the day.

Alcibiades wrote:

And sometimes conflicts last longer than one night.

So, can we just withdraw and attack again the next night?

Or, would that be too tactical?

Alcibiades wrote:

And sometimes Dark Eldar are the ones being attacked.

And they decide to actually order themselves on the battlefield? That's... generous of them. I'd have thought they'd, you know, just withdraw and get their revenge later.

**Alcibiades**

Really, fluffily, Dark Eldar would not be engaged in action against armed enemies at all. They would be attacking relatively undefended areas.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

vipoid wrote:

So, can we just withdraw and attack again the next night?

Or, would that be too tactical?

Alcibiades wrote:

And sometimes Dark Eldar are the ones being attacked.

And they decide to actually order themselves on the battlefield? That's... generous of them. I'd have thought they'd, you know, just withdraw and get their revenge later.

Man, you could say this about anybody. You can't just walk away and attack later all the time. And you can't always retreat.

**vipoid**

Nonsense! I'm sure those 4 Imperial Knights are the prefect target. We just need to find a way to get them on a raider once they've been subdued...

**Solar Shock**

vipoid wrote:

Thing is, it takes 27 shots to explode an AV12 vehicle. So, 90% of the time, you'll have to glance it to death.

So 2/3, 1/3, 1/3, including wrecked, as wrecked is equally as valuable. thats 1/14. So 1 in 5 vehicles should be ruined. But in reality you can get lucky and unlucky so averages aren't the best. But i'll agree it is inefficient.

nomnomnom! a haemy imperial knight ;P All fleshed up god that would be cool!

**0s0ldier615**

I agree that the flesh gauntlets were a bad choice, so they will be switched for scissorhands. Same price tag, quick fix. Not really sure what I was thinking, but totally see your point.

As for Lance weapons, I have three in the whole list and they are on warriors. I agree that Lance weapons aren't ideal, but what other weapon options do I have for my troops that are better. At this point, I have three S8 AP2 weapons that also have lance. That give my warriors something to do in the meantime, rather than nothing but splinter weapons that are literally, in every way, useless against his mech army. I am still putting out a fair amount of shots with my three warrior unit, and while yes poison is less effective against the guard than most armies, again what else have I got. And if you haven't noticed the five, count 'em 5, units of haywire scourges that are going to be doing the ranged heavy lifting on this list. That's 20 heywire shots at 24", I am not really worried about my three little blasters. If I take them off I have dedicated anti infantry units that instead of getting16 poisoned shots and a S8 AP2 lance shot, get 17 poisoned shots. Where does that make sense when everyone agrees the poison is less effective against guard.

Am I totally off on my rational? Please, let me know, if I am. And sorry about the rant

**vipoid**

Solar Shock wrote:
vipoid wrote:

Thing is, it takes 27 shots to explode an AV12 vehicle. So, 90% of the time, you'll have to glance it to death.

So 2/3, 1/3, 1/3, including wrecked, as wrecked is equally as valuable. thats 1/14. So 1 in 5 vehicles should be ruined. But in reality you can get lucky and unlucky so averages aren't the best. But i'll agree it is inefficient.

I don't understand what those numbers are representing. Is it the odds of destroying a vehicle?

If so, then the last value should be 1/6, not 1/3. There is no 'wrecked' on the damage table - only 'explodes', which is 1/6 for a dark lance.

**Solar Shock**

vipoid wrote:

I don't understand what those numbers are representing. Is it the odds of destroying a vehicle?

If so, then the last value should be 1/6, not 1/3. There is no 'wrecked' on the damage table - only 'explodes', which is 1/6 for a dark lance.

Ah you are indeed right, I was having a brain fart and being lazy about cross checking in my BRB

so yeh 1/27

**0s0ldier615**

Instead if using the blasters do you think a Sybarite with heywire grenades would be a better option for the warriors in the venoms? It is the same price and, IMO, I a lot better than a shredder which is the only other option warriors have. This would give them 12 poisoned shots at 36", 17 at 24", and 22 at 12". And if they are forced to get in close to a tank I can charge a do one hull point pretty reliably.

What do you think? Better than blaster?

**vipoid**

I think range is the big issue - you'll have less than half the range of a blaster.

Also, you'll have no chance of destroying a vehicle outright and be far less likely to suppress it. Also, in a TAC list, they'll be a lot worse against stuff like terminators and MCs.

The trouble is, haywire grenades really require multiples to do anything, but we can only have one per squad.

**Trueknight803**

If he's running mech then the ignores cover order is irrelevant.

Grotestues will do wonders for you. Stick them with a haemie, put them in a raider and get up field asap... Nightshields will help keep it alive long enough to deliver.

Reavers/scourges will help pop open the boxes.