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I Face a deathguard player with a List That contains
Mortarion in a Unit with Gravewarden Terminators in a Kharibdys Assault Pod.
The Pod drops arrives by Deep strike Heat blasts, jinks, next turn moves and Unit disembarks.
Nothing can stand against those unit...
We Play in a competitive meta, Forgeworld is allowed as per official rules.also lord of war.
Mortarion kills everything on sight.. Whatever he wants.
I tried to tie him up with bodys...doesnt work cause of his slash attack.
Which normally Means he insta kills every Model in Base contact.
Counter Deathstar also doesnt work, there is just no character who stands against him for too Long.
When he kills his target he Moves 6", then moves 10" with shadow of the reaper+charge range... With Fleet...meaning... He will reach whatever he wants.
2 imperial knights attacked him..
He wrecked both in 2 turns.. Strengh 7, 6attacks at ini7 with reroll armour pen...poison only wounds on 6+ and he has a Twin linked it will not die Roll.
Last game where i played my grey knights he charged in thre middle of my Army.
I attacked the gravewardens and him with 10 Paladins,2x5 terminators,20 strikers, Draigo a librarian and 2 dreadknights... Guess who own?
What to do against this bastards?

Stay away from it. They only move 6" so kill their ride and leave em be.

Wraithstar baby. Grab orikan empowered, a kitted out D lord and a unit of wraiths. You have:

A t7 str 7 4 Attack character w/ ap 2 w/re-rolls to hit, gives squad re-rolls of saving throws of 1

A t6 str 7 3 Attack character w/ap 2, gives squad preferred enemy and has a 1 use str 7 ap 2 flamer, re-rollable 2+/4++, then a re-rollable 4++ one phase per game

6 str 6 t5 2w i5 models w/3 rending attacks each, 3++

Needless to say, this unit will also be guaranteed the charge since wraiths move 12"

The whole unit is just shy of 600 points depending on loadout....haha wow that's a lot but I assume mortarion & crew are a hefty chunk of change as well

What do you play?

The mortarion and co Death Star is vulnerable to shooting due to majority T so ping them with high str, low ap weapons.

The unit is probably 1000 points or more as well so I doubt we has much else in the force to support it. Kill his ability to claim objectives as in 30k only troops score

 winterwind85 wrote:
I Face a deathguard player with a List That contains
Mortarion in a Unit with Gravewarden Terminators in a Kharibdys Assault Pod.
The Pod drops arrives by Deep strike Heat blasts, jinks, next turn moves and Unit disembarks.
Nothing can stand against those unit...
We Play in a competitive meta, Forgeworld is allowed as per official rules.also lord of war.
Mortarion kills everything on sight.. Whatever he wants.
I tried to tie him up with bodys...doesnt work cause of his slash attack.
Which normally Means he insta kills every Model in Base contact.
Counter Deathstar also doesnt work, there is just no character who stands against him for too Long.
When he kills his target he Moves 6", then moves 10" with shadow of the reaper+charge range... With Fleet...meaning... He will reach whatever he wants.
2 imperial knights attacked him..
He wrecked both in 2 turns.. Strengh 7, 6attacks at ini7 with reroll armour pen...poison only wounds on 6+ and he has a Twin linked it will not die Roll.
Last game where i played my grey knights he charged in thre middle of my Army.
I attacked the gravewardens and him with 10 Paladins,2x5 terminators,20 strikers, Draigo a librarian and 2 dreadknights... Guess who own?
What to do against this bastards?

How does he wreck 2 knights in two turns. With S7 he needs 6s to glance and 12 of them to kill two knights

And all they need in return is a single 6 either on a mellee attack or a stomp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But once again, depending on what you play. If you're playing 40k, just tarpit them with cheap cannon fodder. They got no H&R - so, very vulnerable to conscripts.

I'd blow up the Kharibdys before his guys could get out of it to begin with. A talon of lascannon Mortis contemptors would shred anything attempting to come on the board like that. The crash alone would kill most the terminators inside and is one of the very, very few ways to actually deal damage to Mortarion himself.

Then you've only got to worry about Mortarion which is a lot more bearable when he's got to separate from the unit in order to get anywhere. Is he still going to wreck face? Yes. All the primarchs do. Still, alone he's significantly less of a threat.

Draigo Star would kill him.
Draigo, ML3 librarian, brother-captain Stern, Tigirius
4 gravturians

Draigo star might kill it - but if mortarion catches them the unit will die

is not playing 30k against 40k armies not an option. I am pretty sure forgeworld has said they aren't balanced against each other. How about telling him no, I will not play that. Failing that, use the emperor I guess.

Nope, Forgeworld has never explicitly stated that they're incompatible against one another- and in fact power-level wise 30K isn't above 40K.

You can still refuse to play against 30K armies of course -no one can force you to play a game -but your decision has about as much official merit behind it as me, say, refusing to play against your ork army with my Daemons army.

Fragile wrote:
How does he wreck 2 knights in two turns. With S7 he needs 6s to glance and 12 of them to kill two knights

Indeed. It sounds to me like the OP is being somewhat disingenuous. Even with sunder allowing him to re-roll pens, you're looking at an average of 4 hits on the charge, which averages one glance a turn. Killing a Knight a turn is vastly improbable.

As noted, knights are good. The Gravewardens can make a mess of them, though, so be sure to wipe them out first.

Ultimately, the fastest answer is to slap them silly with destroyer weapons; a Warhound Titan with double-dual turbolasers can make a nice mess of pretty much anything with concentrated fire!

At tournament points level he is at a disadvantage. As stated, that unit is extremely expensive. Knowing 30k values, he cannot have much else. You can really bring a lot of toys below 2500 points. Also he cannot bring a LoW that is more than 25% of his army and only one of them and I think The drop pod itself is considered a LoW is it not? I only know of one Primarch that gets to bring a superheavy as a bonus LoW and that's Perturabo.

I agree, shooting down the dropship is the best bet. Aside from that a Caestus ram with its pie plate melta will put a nice hole in that block.

A warhound will work as well and still be less points than what he is bringing.

Nah, that pod is heavy support from memory.

And Dorn can bring a thunder hawk if he wants as a DT!

30k units are fine in 40k other than primarchs, Im sure fw have said this somewhere before.
Either way I play a fair bit of 30k and mort is a fairly weak primarch compared to others. I play word bearers normally and Lorgar has never lost to mort in about 10-15 games, equally fulgrim always beats him although they have only met 3 times now as it's my new army.

Basically fight fire with fire, he will cry if he sees you turning up with Lorgar and 5 gal vorbak. Although it's not cheap on point ms or money, it is a thing of beauty though

Col. Dash wrote:
At tournament points level he is at a disadvantage. As stated, that unit is extremely expensive. Knowing 30k values, he cannot have much else. You can really bring a lot of toys below 2500 points. Also he cannot bring a LoW that is more than 25% of his army and only one of them and I think The drop pod itself is considered a LoW is it not? I only know of one Primarch that gets to bring a superheavy as a bonus LoW and that's Perturabo.

I agree, shooting down the dropship is the best bet. Aside from that a Caestus ram with its pie plate melta will put a nice hole in that block.

A warhound will work as well and still be less points than what he is bringing.

The Kharybdis Assault Claw is a heavy support option. Also, Rogal Dorn can bring along a special Thunderhawk in the same manner in which Perturabo brings his Shadowsword.

@dark_red: They basically say that at the end of book 1 of the HH series, and probably at the end of the others as well. Horus Heresy books are meant to be played internally but the rule set is compatible with regular 40k. Just don't expect parity. Lots of things in HH are overcosted in regular 40k but are amazing for 30k, and a lot of stuff is undercosted for 30k that might wreck 40k.

I would also say Mortarion is not a "weak" primarch, just that he's not a scrapper. He's not supposed to go win 1v1 combat because his strengths lie in murdering huge swaths of infantry. Of course Fulgrim wins that duel; he wins every duel because that's what he's designed to go do. Does mean an option to fight him is to pit one of 40ks other scrappy uber-fighty close combat bad-asses up against him.

Fulgrim statistically wouldn't even beat Mortarion on average, who with more wounds, T7 and a re-rollable IWND will outlast Fulgrim with about a wound remaining on average.

Now, Angron... Angron would get up in that ass. On the other hand Angron goes down like a bitch to shooting, so as SRS said it's a matter of roles.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Fulgrim statistically wouldn't even beat Mortarion on average, who with more wounds, T7 and a re-rollable IWND will outlast Fulgrim with about a wound remaining on average.

Now, Angron... Angron would get up in that ass. On the other hand Angron goes down like a bitch to shooting, so as SRS said it's a matter of roles.

Nope fulgrim generally beats him in 2-3 rounds of combat almost every time, hes brutal in melee. Hitting first with way more attacks better weapon skill and wounding on 4s. He can also pick his warlord trait to children of tera which means he can reroll hits of 1(I think from memory maybe all misses but can't remember) he also has a 3++ over morts 4++
The only person fulgrim loses against 1v1 is vulkan, but he's way to strong, oh and sometimes horus or manus but seen this go both ways lots of times

Anyway just tell the guy primarchs aren't for 40k and if he wants one he can play an apoc game or 30k

 SRSFACE wrote:
I'd blow up the Kharibdys before his guys could get out of it to begin with. A talon of lascannon Mortis contemptors would shred anything attempting to come on the board like that. The crash alone would kill most the terminators inside and is one of the very, very few ways to actually deal damage to Mortarion himself.

Then you've only got to worry about Mortarion which is a lot more bearable when he's got to separate from the unit in order to get anywhere. Is he still going to wreck face? Yes. All the primarchs do. Still, alone he's significantly less of a threat.

The chaos drop pods arrive in Hover mode (and therefore are easy to blow up but do not result in crash damage)..

dark_red wrote:
Nope fulgrim generally beats him in 2-3 rounds of combat almost every time, hes brutal in melee. Hitting first with way more attacks better weapon skill and wounding on 4s. He can also pick his warlord trait to children of tera which means he can reroll hits of 1(I think from memory maybe all misses but can't remember) he also has a 3++ over morts 4++

Fulgrim is wounding on 5's, not 4's. He's strength 6.

Mathematical probability disagrees with you. Even when re-rolling 1's, he's only putting 1 wound a turn on Mortarion on average. Mortarion, hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's, gets ~.6 wounds on Fulgrim through his 3++ per turn on average.

So they trade wounds every turn, and Fulgrim will run out first due to Mortarion having more base wounds and a re-rollable IWND.

wtnind wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
I'd blow up the Kharibdys before his guys could get out of it to begin with. A talon of lascannon Mortis contemptors would shred anything attempting to come on the board like that. The crash alone would kill most the terminators inside and is one of the very, very few ways to actually deal damage to Mortarion himself.

Then you've only got to worry about Mortarion which is a lot more bearable when he's got to separate from the unit in order to get anywhere. Is he still going to wreck face? Yes. All the primarchs do. Still, alone he's significantly less of a threat.

The chaos drop pods arrive in Hover mode (and therefore are easy to blow up but do not result in crash damage)..

Oh that's a good point. Totally spaced that.

Still, it's possible to blow it up upon entry and that theoretically should really hinder the units inside from doing anything of substance for an extra turn.

 SRSFACE wrote:

wtnind wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
I'd blow up the Kharibdys before his guys could get out of it to begin with. A talon of lascannon Mortis contemptors would shred anything attempting to come on the board like that. The crash alone would kill most the terminators inside and is one of the very, very few ways to actually deal damage to Mortarion himself.

Then you've only got to worry about Mortarion which is a lot more bearable when he's got to separate from the unit in order to get anywhere. Is he still going to wreck face? Yes. All the primarchs do. Still, alone he's significantly less of a threat.

The chaos drop pods arrive in Hover mode (and therefore are easy to blow up but do not result in crash damage)..

Oh that's a good point. Totally spaced that.

Still, it's possible to blow it up upon entry and that theoretically should really hinder the units inside from doing anything of substance for an extra turn.

Yeah its a bit of a strange one since it has a special rule allowing only a 2" disembark the act of moving it 6" and disembarking 2" is the same as if it gets blown up (and your guys disembark 2") then they move 6" next turn under their own steam. Since it has an assault ramp they can assault the next turn either way. The only benefit to destroying it is with interceptor in which case you can prevent it turbo boosting the shooting phase it arrives.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

dark_red wrote:
Nope fulgrim generally beats him in 2-3 rounds of combat almost every time, hes brutal in melee. Hitting first with way more attacks better weapon skill and wounding on 4s. He can also pick his warlord trait to children of tera which means he can reroll hits of 1(I think from memory maybe all misses but can't remember) he also has a 3++ over morts 4++

Fulgrim is wounding on 5's, not 4's. He's strength 6.

Mathematical probability disagrees with you. Even when re-rolling 1's, he's only putting 1 wound a turn on Mortarion on average. Mortarion, hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's, gets ~.6 wounds on Fulgrim through his 3++ per turn on average.

So they trade wounds every turn, and Fulgrim will run out first due to Mortarion having more base wounds and a re-rollable IWND.

But, they don't trade wounds every turn. Fulgrim's deals about 0.8 wounds on average opposed to Mortarion inflicting 0.5 wounds a turn. Factor in Fulgrim is guaranteed to reroll 1s in close combat if you choose the Child of Terra warlord trait and he causes roughly 1.02 wounds a round. You even got that part of your math correct so I'm not sure why you're convinced the guy who's inflicting more wounds doesn't win the combat eventually.

Fulgrim's got a 3++ in close combat. Maybe you weren't factoring that in correctly? He's also attacking Mortarion a whopping 8 times a round hitting on 3+. And he goes first. And it's not like he doesn't have IWND himself.

Fulgrim is a challenge monster. He really does beat just about every primarch in a challenge, eventually.

Also, don't forget that Fulgrim is better off using Fireblade, which makes him S7 (and it's master-crafted).

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Also, don't forget that Fulgrim is better off using Fireblade, which makes him S7 (and it's master-crafted).

Yep makes him S7 wouldn't leave home without this now, was a big upgrade to fulgrim, one I'm not sure he really needed either