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Topic says it all. Fun part all can deal with both infantry and AV, so both blobs and LR.

Dealing with AV? Melta guns and Lascannons of course. Dealing with Artillery? Throw your men at it. I don't know haha.

 ultimentra wrote:
Dealing with AV? Melta guns and Lascannons of course. Dealing with Artillery? Throw your men at it. I don't know haha.

Lot of Accelerator autocannons, rending heavy bolters, Hades auto cannons Harvester cannons and lascannons mean instant deathed HWTs and popped Chimeras. With all that high strength rending, it's even bad for LRs. So 3 rapier with Hades autocannan, 2 sicaran, 1 with lascannons, 1 with rending heavy bolters and a Soul grinder with harvest cannon and warp gaze. All of these have 48" range, boltesrs 36". It's all bad news for IG. I'm trying to beat FW heavy CSM/Demon army with a codex IG list.

Ok saw your second post...ignore my post.

A LRBT or demolishers blast can take lots of wounds of the hades if they are not spread out much. If you get say 4 crew and 2 rapiers under it, you're looking at an average of 5 wounds.

All the lascannons?

Could always just bring more AV14 and T7 arty than your opponent.

Just take your regular complement of Demolishers, MLs, Plasma & Meltas -- that is your IG army core, right?

This is CSM/Demons with FW, 2 Sicarans, 3 Rapiers with Hades autocannons, 1 Soul gridner with warp gaze. My problem is that's 6 separate units which will instant death a HWT, can glance/pen Chimeras and even hurt Leman Russes.

So theoretically it can hurt 6 units a turn badly, and can definitely destroy quite a few units on my side, leaving me with lot less to shoot back. A HWS with full lascannons costs 105 points, not to mention the platoon that unlocks it, a Veteran squad in Chimera costs nearly 200, so I can't put so many target in the list, that I'll surely have enough to shoot back. So I feel both out manned and out gunned, which is bad.

The original idea (after the previous failed badly) is to spam as much HWS as possible, with some Chimera vets with plasma/melta, and some LRs, but it still seems fragile.

Have you thought about a void shield generator to reduce his initial output?

Poly Ranger wrote:
Have you thought about a void shield generator to reduce his initial output?

Nope, don't even know the rules for it, I'll check it out. I was thinking about ADL, to give my hws 4+ cover.

Dude, if he's bringing a Sicaran, I'd just drop a Warhound Titan with twin Turbolasers dropping 4 D templates a turn.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Dude, if he's bringing a Sicaran, I'd just drop a Warhound Titan with twin Turbolasers dropping 4 D templates a turn.

I just don't have a Warhound, and while we are using proxies, so I can use milk bottles as the Titan, the plan is to try to defeat it with the models I have, or will have realistically, so basically the IG codex.

The void shield generator has some official model, or I can use whatever scratchbuilt stuff I want?

It had a limited edition resin model

Look around for it and try to calculate the general size.

Zsolt wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Have you thought about a void shield generator to reduce his initial output?

Nope, don't even know the rules for it, I'll check it out. I was thinking about ADL, to give my hws 4+ cover.

For 100pts it gives 3 av12 shields to anything within 12" of the generator (from shots outside of the 12"). If they get glanced or penned they go down, but you roll for each downed shield every turn and on a 5+ it comes back. You can have a whole void relay system giving upto 9 shields for 1 fortification slot, but I wouldn't suggest that at 1250pts.
Another option would be a skyshield landing pad.
Since it looks like a shooting fest I'd also suggest battle cannon vengence batteries as a different option.

As to the actual guard units, Pask punisher with a vanquisher partner will be your best bet for HQ and I'd go with russess for HS. Vendettas may help for FA but they are very expensive. Check out IA:1, I don't have it so I can't help you there but there are options for earthshaker batteries and rapiers.

Poly Ranger wrote:

Zsolt wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Have you thought about a void shield generator to reduce his initial output?

Nope, don't even know the rules for it, I'll check it out. I was thinking about ADL, to give my hws 4+ cover.

For 100pts it gives 3 av12 shields to anything within 12" of the generator (from shots outside of the 12"). If they get glanced or penned they go down, but you roll for each downed shield every turn and on a 5+ it comes back. You can have a whole void relay system giving upto 9 shields for 1 fortification slot, but I wouldn't suggest that at 1250pts.
Another option would be a skyshield landing pad.
Since it looks like a shooting fest I'd also suggest battle cannon vengence batteries as a different option.

As to the actual guard units, Pask punisher with a vanquisher partner will be your best bet for HQ and I'd go with russess for HS. Vendettas may help for FA but they are very expensive. Check out IA:1, I don't have it so I can't help you there but there are options for earthshaker batteries and rapiers.

Problem with Pask that the two Sicarans exploded both him and his buddy with one turn of shooting (they were in 4+ cover with camo net and intervening unit). Everything in that listhas 48" and 36" while Pask has 24". I just won't get in range.

If I understand right, the void shield generator isn't considered a different unit, but the enemy targets my unit, and the first few shots are resolved against the shields, and after they are down, the remaining shots from the firing unit are resolved against my unit.

Who mans the rapiers? Is it a regular marine? Killing the gunner is going to be easier than the guns you you need barrage or deepstriking melta/plasma.

Not so sure about the sicarans, does he give them immune to melta? Even if he does melta might still work As it is still ap1 and it's str 8.

F it.
1250 points (iirc)
Ccs w 2 meltas, chimera 150
2 vets w 2 meltas, chimera 290

3, 5 man scion squads w 2 meltas 270
3, 5 man scion squads w 2 meltas 270
3, 5 man scion squads w 2 meltas 270

By the way what does have for troops?
What missions do you play? Seems like he is a gunline army. Play a maelstrum mission?

An aegis would help against that shooting too. I've never played against a sicaran so hopefully someone has advice for those.

 portugus wrote:
Who mans the rapiers? Is it a regular marine? Killing the gunner is going to be easier than the guns you you need barrage or deepstriking melta/plasma.

Not so sure about the sicarans, does he give them immune to melta? Even if he does melta might still work As it is still ap1 and it's str 8.

F it.
1250 points (iirc)
Ccs w 2 meltas, chimera 150
2 vets w 2 meltas, chimera 290

3, 5 man scion squads w 2 meltas 270
3, 5 man scion squads w 2 meltas 270
3, 5 man scion squads w 2 meltas 270

By the way what does have for troops?
What missions do you play? Seems like he is a gunline army. Play a maelstrum mission?

An aegis would help against that shooting too. I've never played against a sicaran so hopefully someone has advice for those.

Regualr CSM, but because of Artillery unit type, everyone has the T7 of the gun, so it's not that easy to deal with them. Troops are nurglings, cultists, csm in rhino, the least scary part. No melta immunity, it's just a bit hard to get close to them with melta.

You mentioned that you want to do it with models you have, but didn't tell us what those are.

From the looks of it this list would crumple pretty easily to air superiority. Either just running a squadron of vendettas and then a few valks with rocket pods, or infact an entire Elysian list with 7 flyers all of which are their own unit with.

3 rapier with Hades autocannan, 2 sicaran, 1 with lascannons, 1 with rending heavy bolters and a Soul grinder with harvest cannon and warp gaze. All of these have 48" range, boltesrs 36". It's all bad news for IG. I'm trying to beat FW heavy CSM/Demon army with a codex IG list.

That list is built to chew through armor. Anything av10 to av14 can be dropped fast.

Shooting at artillery is not very effective.

The list is vulnerable to swarms of combined squads and conscripts. The rapiers are at best 6 CSM in cc. The soul grinder is his main cc beast, and it doesn't have enough attacks to deal with fearless conscripts.

I think Sicaran have av12 rear and requires melta bombs to drop.

 morganfreeman wrote:
You mentioned that you want to do it with models you have, but didn't tell us what those are.

From the looks of it this list would crumple pretty easily to air superiority. Either just running a squadron of vendettas and then a few valks with rocket pods, or infact an entire Elysian list with 7 flyers all of which are their own unit with.

True enough. I have 2 wyverns, 4 chimeras, 2 LR demo kit, 1 LR regular kit, 4 old LR kit with only the battle cannon, 1 hellhound, 1 manticore/Deathstrike, around 15 HWT, 1 basilisk, 1 vendetta, 5 wyrdvane psykers (using them as either primaris or Inquisition psykers), Coteaz, 2 inquisitors, around 30 kasrkins (5plasma, 3 melta, 2 flamer), techpriest, astropath, moo, ootf, and somewhat more than 100 regular IG troops. A lot of these unassembled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 rapier with Hades autocannan, 2 sicaran, 1 with lascannons, 1 with rending heavy bolters and a Soul grinder with harvest cannon and warp gaze. All of these have 48" range, boltesrs 36". It's all bad news for IG. I'm trying to beat FW heavy CSM/Demon army with a codex IG list.

That list is built to chew through armor. Anything av10 to av14 can be dropped fast.

Shooting at artillery is not very effective.

The list is vulnerable to swarms of combined squads and conscripts. The rapiers are at best 6 CSM in cc. The soul grinder is his main cc beast, and it doesn't have enough attacks to deal with fearless conscripts.

I think Sicaran have av12 rear and requires melta bombs to drop.

To chew through both armor and infantry. Any weapon on any of those tanks shoots a multiple high strength shots all of them with AP4 (the best armor IG can have), so that's 2+ wound, no save, often instant death for my troops. And a lot of those shots.

Sicaran has 12 rear armor, so krak grenades can hurt them. On a 6, after it's hit, and my men ran through the field through all that firepower.

If you can proxy, with that many Leman Russes to start with, you might try an Executioner or Exterminator-based Steel Host. If you put your commander (or pask standing in for the commander) in something really long range like a vanquisher, and use his consort as "cover"-- might try to make it an annhiliator and "cover" with the other russes, The Host basically gives Pask's warlord trait to everyone in the Host as long as the commander (or Pask) survives; you'd mostly be using him for the armor pen reroll if you stuff him in a vanquisher, or the reroll if you use an Exterminator. As nice as a pask-based punisher can be, with the guys you have, you're going to have some problems. Other possibilities include forcefeeding the Vendetta (maybe with the techpriests and some servitors on board) on first turn by proxying a Skyshield, and plant the Basilisk and your missile launcher of choice (IMO, the Manticore or proxy it into another basilisk) so they can roll onto it (the dangerous terrain test might be an annoyance, but I'm not sure it's worth 10 points putting dozers on the two) and enjoy the 4++ bombardment from that point, especially if you can use your proxy'd primaris to give them twin-linked as well. Sub Pask in a vanquisher and an exterminator in as the consort, shield the consort with suicide vets with Forward Sentries and be very, very careful with your terrain and layout placement...

Other ideas include using the Inquisitors to get some servo-skulls carefully placed to make your initial barrage even worse. Or turn things on the head and use your Kasrkins to form a new-style Tempestus detachment, proxy them all as melta-wielding melta-bombed Tempestor'd groups, with Coteaz and his inquisitor buddies as an allied detachment to hold the field. Flesh out a bit with henchmen and vehicles and whatnot, and layer the servo-skulls to force him to either deploy in all directions or let you airdrop your meltas up his heavy toy's kilts.

Also, am I misremembering, or are Sicarans supposed to be one to an army?

IsawaBrian wrote:
If you can proxy, with that many Leman Russes to start with, you might try an Executioner or Exterminator-based Steel Host. If you put your commander (or pask standing in for the commander) in something really long range like a vanquisher, and use his consort as "cover"-- might try to make it an annhiliator and "cover" with the other russes, The Host basically gives Pask's warlord trait to everyone in the Host as long as the commander (or Pask) survives; you'd mostly be using him for the armor pen reroll if you stuff him in a vanquisher, or the reroll if you use an Exterminator.

The enemy has a lot of AV13, both the autocannon and plasma tank has S7, having hard time shooting through AV13. The steel host only gives Preferred enemy, that doesn't re-roll armor penetration. How does that help me dealing with heavy armor? While Pask in an executioner seems nice against armor, that's only a single tank with 2HP a turn tops (Vanquisher and Lascannon).

As nice as a pask-based punisher can be, with the guys you have, you're going to have some problems.

How can I make Paskisher really work? I really like that unit so I'm happy to build my army around it.

Other possibilities include forcefeeding the Vendetta (maybe with the techpriests and some servitors on board) on first turn by proxying a Skyshield, and plant the Basilisk and your missile launcher of choice (IMO, the Manticore or proxy it into another basilisk) so they can roll onto it (the dangerous terrain test might be an annoyance, but I'm not sure it's worth 10 points putting dozers on the two) and enjoy the 4++ bombardment from that point, especially if you can use your proxy'd primaris to give them twin-linked as well.

Basilisk and Manticore with Skyhield with Primaris is a lot of point. Does that work? High S Ordnance weapons are nice at penetrating armor, still have multiple shots to destroy it (Manticore has D3 hits).

Btw the current Wyrdvane psykers were mentioned in some old IG Collecttors guide as Primaris psyker, so I don't consider them as proxies

Sub Pask in a vanquisher and an exterminator in as the consort, shield the consort with suicide vets with Forward Sentries and be very, very careful with your terrain and layout placement...

So the vets give Pask an 5+ cover, while themselves receiving some cover from camo net? Wouldn't some more bodies better as moving cover, e.g. conscripts? 10 Veterans drop like flies even with some camos.

Other ideas include using the Inquisitors to get some servo-skulls carefully placed to make your initial barrage even worse. Or turn things on the head and use your Kasrkins to form a new-style Tempestus detachment, proxy them all as melta-wielding melta-bombed Tempestor'd groups, with Coteaz and his inquisitor buddies as an allied detachment to hold the field. Flesh out a bit with henchmen and vehicles and whatnot, and layer the servo-skulls to force him to either deploy in all directions or let you airdrop your meltas up his heavy toy's kilts.

I don't really understand this. You are talking about the Scion codex, or regular IG codex DS-ing Scions?

Also, am I misremembering, or are Sicarans supposed to be one to an army?

Yes, for SM, you can have a single one, after that you need a special HQ. For Chaos you can have any amount of them, also they can give rending to their HBs. So as I see Chaos Sicaran >>> SM Sicaran. A lot.

Proxy cypher,
50 man guard squad with meta guns and lascannons (Powers words and meta bombs optional)
All infiltrated forward now you have 5 lascannons and 5 melta guns with 30+ wounds sitting 18" away on the first turn :-)
and they are shrouded as well :-)

Assault the artillery asap kill the men manning the gun then hit and run out of combat hopefully getting behind the tanks.

Do you have access to a SM captain model, and 10 ccw scouts? If so:

AM:
Pask vanquisher with lascannon
Exterminator

Priest (with blob #1)

Platoon command squad
Autocannon

Blob #1
40 guardsmen
3 melta bombs, 10 krak granades, 2 power axes

Platoon command squad
Autocannon

Blob #2
40 guardsmen
4 melta bombs, 2 power axes

Raptors allies
Lias Issodon (with blob #2)

5 scouts
Ccw & bps, melta bombs

5 scouts
Ccw & bps, melta bombs

1250pts.

Issodon infiltrates (with his warlord trait) blob#1, blob #2 and the priest. Blob 2 also gets scout off issodon (as he has infiltrate. So ends up 12" from opponent before the game. Issodon also grants blob 2 shrouded and T1 stealth for a 4+ cover. They will be ahead of blob 1 (due to scout) thus granting them a 5+ cover as well. Before the game begins, issodon also gives 3 haywire hits against one of the sicarans.
The melta and krak should be exceptionally dangerous to opponents vehicles.
Issodon granting one squad ATSKNF. Priest granting the other fearless. Scouts can also contribute with their melta. PCS objective sit with autocannons, exterminator takes hits for pask.

I really enjoy the tactic of counter-battery fire, so I'd suggest using more artillery to defeat his. Heavy Artillery Batteries are a guardsman's best friend, and you can always bring more guns than your opponent as an Imperial Guard player. If you can't cover your opponent's deployment zone in Large Blasts, you're doing it wrong.

I calculated the 2x Sicarans, 3x Autocannon Rapiers and 1x Soul Grinder to 685pts with options. So, staying within the bounds of your faction:

3x Vanquishers w/Psyker support -- 465pts.
1x Avenger Strike Fighter -- 150pts.

Your Vanquishers will neutralize about one armour unit a turn with some luck, but only with Prescience cast on a squadron. The Avenger will rip up the Rapier battery, you have 9x BS3 shots, bumped to BS4 with Strafing Run that will wound on 2's and deny an armour save. So go after the crew. 70pts are free to upgrade the rest of your army, an idea is to throw an Inquisitor in Terminator armor alongside the Psykers to tank for the squad with his 2+ and guard against Perils.

Aurocannons can't hurt AV14, or reserved units. Rending may hurt but your AP1 Armourbane will hurt a whole lot more. So I think this is doable. Your key points of failure are Prescience or the Avenger coming in badly, so just keep an eye out for that. I'd have liked to do more with the LRBT or Demo, or the Basilisk, but it's just not cost-effective.