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Does the Hemlock Wraithfighter get psychic focus and therefor: Psychic Shriek?

It never generated the psychic power (you generate them by rolling for them) so no, it doesn't get PF

Grey knights the only other psychic pilots I can think of know their primaris so I would say you probably can but its not clear cut needs an FAQ.

It's pretty clear that they don't get psychic focus. The codex says they get a certain power and don't roll on the table. Since they didn't roll, they didn't generate a power and thus don't get psychic focus.

If they did not generate a power, then according to the rules they still need to generate a power. Good thing they have access to Daemonology.

 Happyjew wrote:
If they did not generate a power, then according to the rules they still need to generate a power. Good thing they have access to Daemonology.

I'm pretty certain that is the exact opposite of what the rules say.

 Happyjew wrote:
If they did not generate a power, then according to the rules they still need to generate a power. Good thing they have access to Daemonology.

They have a fixed power, they do not generate.

The unbiased answer is that (as you can see) this is a huge bone of contention, with miles of bitter hatred on both sides, and each school of thought willing to shed every drop of blood within their own body rather than give a single inch of compromise to the other.

Bottom line: ask your opponent or TO before it becomes an issue, until such time as GW gives us a clear FAQ.

Not *Randomly* generating a power is not the same as not generating a power at all.

2nd paragraph under "Generating Powers" - "In some Army List Entries - a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed."... "Otherwise, a psyker generates random psychic powers..."

So here under generating psychic powers we have two types of generation listed. Fixed generation - where a psyker always knows certain powers, and "Random Generation" - where the powers are randomly selected.

Psychic focus does not require the powers to be randomly generated.

Bojazz wrote:
Not *Randomly* generating a power is not the same as not generating a power at all.

2nd paragraph under "Generating Powers" - "In some Army List Entries - a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed."... "Otherwise, a psyker generates random psychic powers..."

So here under generating psychic powers we have two types of generation listed. Fixed generation - where a psyker always knows certain powers, and "Random Generation" - where the powers are randomly selected.

Psychic focus does not require the powers to be randomly generated.

This is how I read it as well.

The other psychic pilot vehicle that I can think of is the Grey Knight's Dreadnought. It doesn't roll either, but is instead given is Sanctuary and Banishment (which also happens to be the primaris power). What that tells me is that GW doesn't know the answer either, and so just side-stepped the issue when making the new GK codex by giving the Dread the primaris anyhow.

As per Bojazz's citation of the rulebook, I'm pretty sure it doesn't get a primaris. Which is too bad, it would make the Hemlock an interesting unit and would fit the fluff of it.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
The other psychic pilot vehicle that I can think of is the Grey Knight's Dreadnought. It doesn't roll either, but is instead given is Sanctuary and Banishment (which also happens to be the primaris power). What that tells me is that GW doesn't know the answer either, and so just side-stepped the issue when making the new GK codex by giving the Dread the primaris anyhow.

As per Bojazz's citation of the rulebook, I'm pretty sure it doesn't get a primaris. Which is too bad, it would make the Hemlock an interesting unit and would fit the fluff of it.

The Eldar codex was written before 7th edition, a time when Psychic Focus did not exist.

As such you have two options.
1. They generate a specific power and do not roll and thus get the Primaris or,
2. They do not generate a power, and thus are required to generate 1 power. Since the only discipline they can generate a power on is Daemonolgy, they have their specified power, a generated power from Daemonology, and since they've generated all their powers from one discipline (daemonology), they get the Primaris for whichever Daemonology discipline they chose.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
The other psychic pilot vehicle that I can think of is the Grey Knight's Dreadnought. It doesn't roll either, but is instead given is Sanctuary and Banishment (which also happens to be the primaris power). What that tells me is that GW doesn't know the answer either, and so just side-stepped the issue when making the new GK codex by giving the Dread the primaris anyhow.

As per Bojazz's citation of the rulebook, I'm pretty sure it doesn't get a primaris. Which is too bad, it would make the Hemlock an interesting unit and would fit the fluff of it.

The Eldar codex was written before 7th edition, a time when Psychic Focus did not exist.

As such you have two options.
1. They generate a specific power and do not roll and thus get the Primaris or,
2. They do not generate a power, and thus are required to generate 1 power. Since the only discipline they can generate a power on is Daemonolgy, they have their specified power, a generated power from Daemonology, and since they've generated all their powers from one discipline (daemonology), they get the Primaris for whichever Daemonology discipline they chose.

Or, they do not generate any powers because they have listed powers and because they do not generate powers, they do not gain Focus.

Fragile wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DanielBeaver wrote:
The other psychic pilot vehicle that I can think of is the Grey Knight's Dreadnought. It doesn't roll either, but is instead given is Sanctuary and Banishment (which also happens to be the primaris power). What that tells me is that GW doesn't know the answer either, and so just side-stepped the issue when making the new GK codex by giving the Dread the primaris anyhow.

As per Bojazz's citation of the rulebook, I'm pretty sure it doesn't get a primaris. Which is too bad, it would make the Hemlock an interesting unit and would fit the fluff of it.

The Eldar codex was written before 7th edition, a time when Psychic Focus did not exist.

As such you have two options.
1. They generate a specific power and do not roll and thus get the Primaris or,
2. They do not generate a power, and thus are required to generate 1 power. Since the only discipline they can generate a power on is Daemonolgy, they have their specified power, a generated power from Daemonology, and since they've generated all their powers from one discipline (daemonology), they get the Primaris for whichever Daemonology discipline they chose.

Or, they do not generate any powers because they have listed powers and because they do not generate powers, they do not gain Focus.

You mean follow the rules like when it says "In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed - where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers."

Fail to see how the Hemlock generates from the Daemonology discipline when the Codex rules state that it does not roll for Psychic Powers but always knows Terror.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Fail to see how the Hemlock generates from the Daemonology discipline when the Codex rules state that it does not roll for Psychic Powers but always knows Terror.

If you follow the argument that a ML1 must generate a random power (mentioned by Happy earlier in the thread), they may not choose to generate from Telepathy for example, as it is not listed as an option. However, the FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Eldar_EN.pdf), means that they have the Daemonology discipline available.

However, as you stated, they explicitly do not roll for psychic powers (as opposed to a Codex: Eldar Harlequin Shadowseer, to give an example from the same Codex).

I believe we're on the same line of thinking, and was just showing where the Daemonology mention came from.

 Quanar wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Fail to see how the Hemlock generates from the Daemonology discipline when the Codex rules state that it does not roll for Psychic Powers but always knows Terror.

If you follow the argument that a ML1 must generate a random power (mentioned by Happy earlier in the thread), they may not choose to generate from Telepathy for example, as it is not listed as an option. However, the FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Eldar_EN.pdf), means that they have the Daemonology discipline available.

However, as you stated, they explicitly do not roll for psychic powers (as opposed to a Codex: Eldar Harlequin Shadowseer, to give an example from the same Codex).

I believe we're on the same line of thinking, and was just showing where the Daemonology mention came from.

C: Eldar Shadowseer don't roll for a power. The only psykers who do are Warlocks, Spiritseers and Farseers.

Nothing like 12 models in a single CAD who can all turn into daemons...

 Happyjew wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
(as opposed to a Codex: Eldar Harlequin Shadowseer, to give an example from the same Codex).

C: Eldar Shadowseer don't roll for a power. The only psykers who do are Warlocks, Spiritseers and Farseers.

I meant the specific wording - Shadowseers "always has the Veil of Tears psychic power", whereas the Wraithfighter wording includes "does not roll for psychic powers but always knows...".

Yes, if the codex states it knows X power or powers, then it does not generate powers. If it does not generate powers, it cannot get the Primaris through Focus.

If there are not two types of generation, fixed and random, then why did GW FAQ the Dominion Power in the Tyranid Codex?:

"If the Psyker does not have the Synapse Creature special rule, it gains it for the duration of this power and has a synapse range of 6"."

This was part of the 7th ed. amendments. The only Tyranid that this would apply to is the Broodlord (the only non-Synapse Psyker), who has the fixed power The Horror. If he can't get Dominion, what's the purpose of the FAQ?

Well, you have to admit that

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.

happens to be in the "Generating Psychic Powers" section.

If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated.

Now here, it clearly implies that the only way to generate a psychic power is by using the above process, which is "To randomly generate...".

On the other hand, the text in that part just doesn't work with psykers like zoanthropes that have some fixed powers and some randomly generated.


The fact that there is even a precision about random generation ("to randomly generate") does imply that there could be another way to generate powers.


And lastly, if the requirement is that they are all randomly generated, does that mean that the Zoanthropes would not get Tyranid Psychic Focus ?

Then how about the FAQ on Dominion and the Broodlord ?




I must say, if the Hemlock is meant to have Psychic Shriek, it would probably stop being such an unbelievably terrible flyer.

Angelic wrote:
If there are not two types of generation, fixed and random, then why did GW FAQ the Dominion Power in the Tyranid Codex?:

"If the Psyker does not have the Synapse Creature special rule, it gains it for the duration of this power and has a synapse range of 6"."

This was part of the 7th ed. amendments. The only Tyranid that this would apply to is the Broodlord (the only non-Synapse Psyker), who has the fixed power The Horror. If he can't get Dominion, what's the purpose of the FAQ?

That seems conclusive enough, for me at least. So now Wrauthfighters are almost completely unless.

Up from entirely useless before.

morgoth wrote:

If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated.

Now here, it clearly implies that the only way to generate a psychic power is by using the above process, which is "To randomly generate...".

On the other hand, the text in that part just doesn't work with psykers like zoanthropes that have some fixed powers and some randomly generated.

Lets take the DA's chief libby Ezekiel. Going from memeory he is Mastery level 3, wich means he needs to generate 3 powers. He always knows Mind Worm. So that mean he needs repeat the process until he has 3 powers. What is the process?

1) If the psyker knows a fixed power it generates that one.
2) otherwise choose a domain (restrictions may apply) and roll on the chart for that domain.
3) the psyker generates the power rolled.

Ezekiel gets Mind worm and rolls for two powers and has generated the 3 he needs.

Not RAW, because it is vague in the wording, but its the only way it makes sense to me. And fixed powers not being Generated is RAW either, its all to vague, but that would imply that Exekiel rolls 3 powers instead of 2 and knows 4. I'm not sure if there is an FAQ about that or not, but I beleive there is and that gives strength to a RAI argument.

DJGietzen, DA codex specifically says that Ezekiel knows Mind Worm and generates two more powers. Tyranid codex says Zoanthropes know Warp Blast, and generate one more power. The Tyranid FAQ heavily implies that if a model has a set power, it gets the Primaris for that discipline (assuming it does not have powers from multiple disciplines).

yeah, all supportive of RAI stance that fixed powers count a a generated power. I guess that means Exekiel will never have psychic focus. :/

 DJGietzen wrote:
yeah, all supportive of RAI stance that fixed powers count a a generated power. I guess that means Exekiel will never have psychic focus. :/

Ezekiel gets focus fine, Mind Worm has no discipline so is not counted for working out Psychic Focus (much like say force) so Ezekiel can still know 5 powers.

It's not just RAI.

My quotes prove that the RAW supports both stances.

And then, we have the Tyranid FAQ that confirms which one is the right one.

In my opinion, the only RAW there is, all books included, is that "Knowing a power" is one way to generate a power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DJGietzen wrote:

morgoth wrote:

If the Psyker needs to generate more than one psychic power, repeat the above process until the required number of psychic powers have been generated.

Now here, it clearly implies that the only way to generate a psychic power is by using the above process, which is "To randomly generate...".

On the other hand, the text in that part just doesn't work with psykers like zoanthropes that have some fixed powers and some randomly generated.

Lets take the DA's chief libby Ezekiel. Going from memeory he is Mastery level 3, wich means he needs to generate 3 powers. He always knows Mind Worm. So that mean he needs repeat the process until he has 3 powers. What is the process?

1) If the psyker knows a fixed power it generates that one.
2) otherwise choose a domain (restrictions may apply) and roll on the chart for that domain.
3) the psyker generates the power rolled.

Ezekiel gets Mind worm and rolls for two powers and has generated the 3 he needs.

Not RAW, because it is vague in the wording, but its the only way it makes sense to me. And fixed powers not being Generated is RAW either, its all to vague, but that would imply that Exekiel rolls 3 powers instead of 2 and knows 4. I'm not sure if there is an FAQ about that or not, but I beleive there is and that gives strength to a RAI argument.

You are making up that process from what you understand, that's not what's written.

What's written is that there is one process, whereby you generate randomly.

The book does not even cover the case of having one power known and multiple randomly generated, it doesn't cover quite a few cases explicitly.

However, the book does two things: one is to have a single method for generating powers (randomly), and the other is to mention known powers in the "generate powers" section, i.e. leaving the door open to both interpretations.

What closes the door, thankfully, is the Tyranid FAQ.

further support of known power still gives primaris- in the deathstorm rules the spawn of cryptus named broodlord has a known power and still gets the primaris power for nids, which I believe is dominion.

This is a very interesting discussion. My Mantis Warrior Libby (Azhara Redth) has one built-in, unique psychic power (that as far as I know has not been assigned a psychic discipline) and he also randomly generates a psychic power from a standard discipline. I've always wondered if have a non-disciplinary psychic power prevented him from picking up the extra primaris in the discipline he chooses for his rolled power.

Granted... these are IA rules so God-only-knows what they'd intended in the first place.