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So last week I faced an opponent with a blood Angels army who summoned daemons (cheese) I have a few questions about the process.

First of all, if you summon a demon prince does it start put swooping or can it be hit at normal BS?

My other question is when do perils take place? My opponent rolled to summon his daemon prince with one of his librarians having one wound left the power went off but he suffered perils. He then rolled a 1 for his perils result which states that the psyker takes a wound with no saves allowed, now since the power went off he put the demon prince on the field, is that correct? Would he have died before the daemon was summoned? If not does the demon take the wound or is the peril just negated?

Thanks in advance!

 supreme overlord wrote:
So last week I faced an opponent with a blood Angels army who summoned daemons (cheese) I have a few questions about the process.

First of all, if you summon a demon prince does it start put swooping or can it be hit at normal BS?

My other question is when do perils take place? My opponent rolled to summon his daemon prince with one of his librarians having one wound left the power went off but he suffered perils. He then rolled a 1 for his perils result which states that the psyker takes a wound with no saves allowed, now since the power went off he put the demon prince on the field, is that correct? Would he have died before the daemon was summoned? If not does the demon take the wound or is the peril just negated?

Thanks in advance!

1. As far as I know you don't summon Daemon Princes... (though I am unfamiliar with the Daemon Codex) Edit: I mean the names for units and such
2. Read the Psychic phase section. Perils are resolved IMMEDIATELY. This is before the power is resolved, and before you roll Deny the Witch.
As for the Psyker dying, there's a debate on this. Since you need to check range after the power manifests, if the Psyker dies due to perils, you remove him and can't measure within 3" of him to place the Daemon/resolve any other power with a range. However, the intent may have been to still allow it.
I can't remember if that thread came to a conclusion, by the way.

Also, perils is ANY doubles on Daemonic, by the way. Barring users with the Daemon special rule.

I assume you mean a Greater Daemon, as Daemon Princes cannot actually be summoned.

If the Greater Daemon being summoned in a FMC (either the Lord of Change or Blood thirster), it will indeed be swooping as all Daemons are summoned via deepstrike. FMCs always enter as Swooping if Deepstriking.

This means that the Greater Daemon cant land the turn it is summons, and cant charge the turn after. If your opponent is summoning a Greater Daemon that Flys, you get to ignore it for at least 2 turns.
--------------
As to your second question, non-Daemon Psykers perils on any doubles, not just 6s. The power that summons a Greater Daemon actually Kills the Psyker. I recommend reading the Power in the BRB as it describes how to resolve the power (i.e., place the Daemon, then remove the Psyker)

Okay because the bloodthirster would have killed the psyker anyways so the perils are kind of redundant if the daemon is still summoned.

 supreme overlord wrote:
Okay because the bloodthirster would have killed the psyker anyways so the perils are kind of redundant if the daemon is still summoned.

Bloodthirster?
If you are referring to the Daemon summoned by the Blood Angels player, it wouldn't have killed the Psyker.
Summoned Daemons are under full control of the player that summoned them, and follow the allies matrix for their relationship to that faction (in this case, come the apocalypse)

I thought the summoned daemon auto killed the psyker?

Edit: AKA the psyker BECOMES the daemon

I think Ond Angel may think that the BT charged and killed the Psyker. We are reffering to the Possession Power removing the Psyker as a casualty after the Greater Deamon is summoned

 Galef wrote:
I think Ond Angel may think that the BT charged and killed the Psyker. We are reffering to the Possession Power removing the Psyker as a casualty after the Greater Deamon is summoned

I'm with you now.

I'm thinking of Bloodletters. That's where the confusion came from.
Also, as I was thinking of Bloodletters, I thought OP believed that the Daemons would fight the Blood Angels.
My bad.


Although I do believe that, since the power requires you to remove the caster, if he perils (and dies) you can no longer remove the model to resolve the power.

So, is the bloodthirster summoned or not? And the psyker stays in play?



And just a personal thought, if you summon "come the apoc" allies you should always have a chance of them charging/shooting you.

Damn you 7th Ed and your confusing psychic phase! Haha

I do not have my rulebook on hand, but the common consensus here is that you had to successfully cast the power to remove the Psyker, meaning here is the order:

A) Cast power
B) Resolve Perils if doulbe rolled
C) Place Greater Daemon within range of the Psyker (or where the Pskyer WAS if no longer there from Perils)
D) Remove Psyker (if still there)

However, there is still debate

Some powers simply can't be resolved if the Psyker dies from perils. Witch fires being a good example, you can't measure range, allocate wounds or determine cover saves if the model isn't there.

This line from the Psychic rules first introduces this concept:
"Note that suffering Perils of the Warp does not necessarily mean that a psychic power fails to manifest."
Not necessarily fails, suggests failing is certainly possible.

Having the Psyker dead before summoning a Greater also creates issues. Distance for placing the model cannot be determined, and the Psyker cannot be removed as per the power. It also makes fluff sense that the power would fail (no soul claimed, and no Bloodthirster burst out of the Psykers body, as a warp serge fried his mind).

 Galef wrote:
I do not have my rulebook on hand, but the common consensus here is that you had to successfully cast the power to remove the Psyker, meaning here is the order:

A) Cast power
B) Resolve Perils if doulbe rolled
C) Place Greater Daemon within range of the Psyker (or where the Pskyer WAS if no longer there from Perils)
D) Remove Psyker (if still there)

However, there is still debate

It's at C where the debate lays.
If the Psyker is dead, and therefore off the table, you can't measure 3" from him.
That's one side of it.

 Ond Angel wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I do not have my rulebook on hand, but the common consensus here is that you had to successfully cast the power to remove the Psyker, meaning here is the order:

A) Cast power
B) Resolve Perils if doulbe rolled
C) Place Greater Daemon within range of the Psyker (or where the Pskyer WAS if no longer there from Perils)
D) Remove Psyker (if still there)

However, there is still debate

It's at C where the debate lays.
If the Psyker is dead, and therefore off the table, you can't measure 3" from him.
That's one side of it.

True, and D is also in debate.
The rule doesn't mention "If still there", it's a step that must be completed but cannot.

Here's a handy thread for summoning:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/598376.page

 Ond Angel wrote:

2. Read the Psychic phase section. Perils are resolved IMMEDIATELY. This is before the power is resolved, and before you roll Deny the Witch.

Not really.

Note that suffering Perils of the Warp does not necessarily mean that a psychic power fails to manifest. Assuming that the Psychic test was successful and any Deny the Witch test failed, the psychic power still manifests, regardless of whether or not the Psyker in question suffers a Wound or is slain by Perils of the Warp.

So the daemon still gets summoned.

"Does not necessarily" does not mean "always manifests".
It introduces the possibility it won't work.
And in this case, it can't.

The line "Note that suffering Perils of the Warp does not necessarily mean that a psychic power fails to manifest." does not mean the power auto fails just because you need to roll for perils. It makes it clear it is possible to both a successful psychic test and trigger perils of the warp.
The power only fails to manifest if you do not get enough 4+ rolls in the psychic test or the Deny test was a success.

Assuming that the Psychic test was successful and any Deny the Witch test failed, the psychic power still manifests, regardless of whether or not the Psyker in question suffers a Wound or is slain by Perils of the Warp

The rulebook is very clear that even if the perils kills the psyker you still resolve the psychic power.

So what happens if you need to resolve a psychic power that needs the location of a psyker now removed as a casualty? Congratulations you found an un-intnetial game breaking circumstance. Discuss it with your opponent and come up with a good HIWPI solution, but there is no RAW solution to be had.

Seems like we need a GW FAQ on this one, it seems to me the daemon wouldn't be summoned but RAW makes it seem like it does.

Just as a quick point, the Possession power doesn't state that the Psyker is replaced with the Daemon; it says that the Daemon is summoned, and then in a seperate sentence says that the Psyker is removed.

I can see where the whole "you can't measure from the Psyker" thing comes from, but that's not unique to this; the same would be true for every ranged power. (EDIT: On re-reading, this is not true for non-Nova witchfires, since target selection occurs before this step) Conversely, the Psyker isn't normally removed until the Summon's gone through, so the Daemon can't appear where the Psyker is.

Amusingly, it looks like the Daemon can scatter onto the Psyker, Mishap and die, but since the power was manifested successfully the Psyker would immediately die as well.

... Personally, I normally play this as "Remove the Psyker, put the Daemon in its place, scatter." Less accurate by RAW, but it feels right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
"Does not necessarily" does not mean "always manifests".
It introduces the possibility it won't work.
And in this case, it can't.

Reading the paragraph in full, the reason it states "does not necessarily" is that the power may fail for other reasons - the test could be failed (Warp Charge 3, the double 6s are the only successes) or Denied. It does then state that if the test was successful and not Denied, "the psychic power still manifests, regardless of whether or not the Psyker in question suffers a Wound or is slai by Perils of the Warp."

Yep the power still manifests even if the psyker dies to perils. I don't see a problem with possession still working, or witchfires too for that matter. Otherwise the rule saying powers still manifest is essential redundant and there was no point in them writing it.

Aelyn wrote:
[...]I can see where the whole "you can't measure from the Psyker" thing comes from, but that's not unique to this; the same would be true for every ranged power. (EDIT: On re-reading, this is not true for non-Nova witchfires, since target selection occurs before this step)[...]

That would still be a problem as once you get to assigning wounds, they are all gone because there is no target in line of sight from the firerer.

you would select a target and measure range before rolling the power so a witch fire would still manifest.. imho

broo wrote:
you would select a target and measure range before rolling the power so a witch fire would still manifest.. imho

And how would you allocate wounds? You have to determine Line of Sight and range for that as well.

rigeld2 wrote:

broo wrote:
you would select a target and measure range before rolling the power so a witch fire would still manifest.. imho

And how would you allocate wounds? You have to determine Line of Sight and range for that as well.

In addition, how could you determine cover saves?
Is the model obscured? From who's perspective?

It's clear that GW should clarify this. But what's an example of a power that could manifest succesfully after the psyker dies? They all have a range or affect his unit. Why would they include that sentence saying they can still manifest?

axisofentropy wrote:
It's clear that GW should clarify this. But what's an example of a power that could manifest succesfully after the psyker dies? They all have a range or affect his unit. Why would they include that sentence saying they can still manifest?

Well said. The obvious explanation is that they included that sentence to make it clear that the power still manifests (witchfires, conjurations, whatever) even if the psyker isn't there anymore. As usual they could have been a bit clearer on how to resolve things but I don't see a problem with measuring range from where the psyker was. The only powers that definitely wouldn't be relevant are those blessings targeting the psyker itself for obvious reasons.

Blessings and Maledictions (mostly) work fine after the Psker dies to perils, as the target is picked before Perils are rolled.

 grendel083 wrote:
Blessings and Maledictions (mostly) work fine after the Psker dies to perils, as the target is picked before Perils are rolled.

The target for any power is picked before perils are rolled.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Blessings and Maledictions (mostly) work fine after the Psker dies to perils, as the target is picked before Perils are rolled.

The target for any power is picked before perils are rolled.

Right.

Witchfires have range and other limitations that happen after perils is resolved. So pretty much anything not a witchfire can be resolved just fine if perils kills the psyker.