Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I haven't played since the tail end of 6th ed, and I am sure this question has been been brought up a million times, but after about 15 minutes of digging through forum posts I have only found posts acknowledging the nerf to its fire radius, but not clear answers as to WHAT the fire radius actually is now.

The baelflamer is now treated as a hull mounted weapon. As I see it, this can be interpreted several ways.

45 degrees straight ahead only. This is how the picture in the book discribes "Hull mounted weapons" and an argument could be made that it is limited to that.

180 degrees. RAW "On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the fun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings" Since the mounting of the flamer is on the head of a creature with serpentine neck I think 180 degrees is the fair assessment of its arc of fire. I do think someone could rules lawyer saying it was up to 300 degrees just not directly behind because of the nature of the neck as such a flexible thing, citing every dragon lore ever.

It's 45 degrees straight ahead as per the Chaos Space Marines FAQ.

 Ghaz wrote:
It's 45 degrees straight ahead as per the Chaos Space Marines FAQ.

The Errata as Written "Treat the Heldrake's ranged weapon as a hull mounted weapon, measuring all ranges and line of sigh from the barrel of the gun."

The RAW from BRB "On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the fun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings"

The Head and neck are the mounting. I am inclined to play correctly, if it IS 45 degrees, then why is that the case when both the above are applied? do we assume the neck and head on a drake cannot move? I want an explanation, not just a nod towards the rules, we both know what it says word for word, I explained several RAI. Which do you play by and why?

Fluff-wise, one might think that it would.

The rules talk about the model, though. Unlike the sponson-mounted weapons on, for example, a Predator or Land Raider, the head and neck on a Heldrake can't/don't actually physically pivot.

Does your Heldrake neck move? In fact, what other than the shape of it as a neck makes you think it can move at all? Do you have undeniable proof that it is not like the cockpit of a jet? Does the cockpit of a jet move around? And before you try to bring it up, a picture or fluff is not rules in the tabletop game. Where is it written that any part of the Heldrake moves? Because 'Dragon Lore' has nothing to do with the model called 'Heldrake'.

SharkoutofWata wrote:Does your Heldrake neck move? In fact, what other than the shape of it as a neck makes you think it can move at all? Do you have undeniable proof that it is not like the cockpit of a jet? Does the cockpit of a jet move around? And before you try to bring it up, a picture or fluff is not rules in the tabletop game. Where is it written that any part of the Heldrake moves? Because 'Dragon Lore' has nothing to do with the model called 'Heldrake'.

I suppose the same could be said for most tanks no? I mean you can make them move, but you can glue them to not move as well. We just understand those types of mountings move, so we accept it. Does this mean if I MFA and make it move I have a better arc? "[b]because of the way the model is assembled. In this case players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings[/b]" also for the record, I will most likely play 45 degrees at my LGS, as I am not a combative player and at the end of it, conceding things like this generaly make for a funner game, I am just not yet convinced its correct, but I am very open to be.

That's the thing. Some GW models are designed so that the weapons can pivot side to side when built. Some are not. The rule is referring to that distinction, and the fire arc rules are written to conform to the models.

You keep quoting 'because of how the model is assembled'. Show me anything in the rules or instruction manual on building it that says the model is intended to have a mobile neck. You can't just quote something without making a direct link to why it is relevant. For example: The model has wings, but it can fly because it is the Flyer type. My Sanguinary Guard has wings, it can't fly because it's not the Flyer type. So I ask my original question again.

Mannahnin wrote:That's the thing. Some GW models are designed so that the weapons can pivot side to side when built. Some are not. The rule is referring to that distinction, and the fire arc rules are written to conform to the models.

So, because if I don't glue it stiff it won't stay together without outside modding (Like magnets) and most guns can be sandwiched in so that they can spin if you choose to build it that way, that is what defines the move-ability?

SharkoutofWata wrote:You keep quoting 'because of how the model is assembled'. Show me anything in the rules or instruction manual on building it that says the model is intended to have a mobile neck. You can't just quote something without making a direct link to why it is relevant. For example: The model has wings, but it can fly because it is the Flyer type. My Sanguinary Guard has wings, it can't fly because it's not the Flyer type. So I ask my original question again.

I don't have all the assembly manuals for all the vehicles, but we both know they don's specifically say "this one can move if you choose not to glue this part" in fact they don't tell you were to glue at all. So by this logic I challenge you to find a specific model that states explicitly that you can keep this piece moving. If you do find one You can't just quote something without making a direct link, In turn I will find a tank assembly guide that does not explicitly state that and I am sure we will both agree that the gun does pivot. The Wings comment is a valid point, but is is different. Flyers have to BE flyers. This gun is treated as "hull mounted" and I am using the "hull mounted" RAW to explain why I think something.

 JoshTheMadTitan wrote:
I don't have all the assembly manuals for all the vehicles, but we both know they don's specifically say "this one can move if you choose not to glue this part" in fact they don't tell you were to glue at all.

This is false. I have several assembly guides where they specifically tell you not to use glue for certain assembly steps.

Ghaz wrote:

 JoshTheMadTitan wrote:
I don't have all the assembly manuals for all the vehicles, but we both know they don's specifically say "this one can move if you choose not to glue this part" in fact they don't tell you were to glue at all.

This is false. I have several assembly guides where they specifically tell you not to use glue for certain assembly steps.

Please show me one.

Does the gunner on the top of the marines vindicator, the one sticking out of the hatch on the mounted gun, what is his arc of fire? Because the Manuel shows the option to put him on, or the hatch itself, and doesn't refer to what your talking about at all. That however is not 45 degrees, because we both understand the intention.

The Necron Annihilation Barge assembly sheet show steps that you are not to glue.

EDIT: Note the 'Do Not Glue' symbol in the upper left corner.

Ghaz wrote:The Necron Annihilation Barge assembly sheet show steps that you are not to glue.

fair enough. but what about the vindicator I was referring to?

As do many of the orc models, Storm raven, Land raider, razor backs, Dakka Jets, Hammerhead, ect...

I know not all of those are Orc models

I don't play Space Marines, so I don't have an assembly guide other than the little bit I found online. Perhaps you should look for yourself?

 JoshTheMadTitan wrote:
This gun is treated as "hull mounted" and I am using the "hull mounted" RAW to explain why I think something.

Except you're not. You're using the Hull Mounted rules and then arbitrarily adding in the idea that the body of the model can turn because it looks like a dragon.

I am going to say that my Stormtalon can swivel the missile launchers so it can shoot backwards. I'm now going to cite 'rotary mounts' as my only source. So it can only shoot 45 degrees ahead, but the mount can turn all the way around, it's just not able to do that because of how it's modelled. But that would be against the rules, wouldn't it? Because I'm saying an immobile part, a part that is specifically meant and modelled to be immobile, is suddenly a swivel.

I also don't have a Vindicator so can't answer that scenario. I know my Rhino storm Bolter can go any direction I place it. So can the Razorback Turret.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 JoshTheMadTitan wrote:
This gun is treated as "hull mounted" and I am using the "hull mounted" RAW to explain why I think something.

Except you're not. You're using the Hull Mounted rules and then arbitrarily adding in the idea that the body of the model can turn because it looks like a dragon.

I am going to say that my Stormtalon can swivel the missile launchers so it can shoot backwards. I'm now going to cite 'rotary mounts' as my only source. So it can only shoot 45 degrees ahead, but the mount can turn all the way around, it's just not able to do that because of how it's modelled. But that would be against the rules, wouldn't it? Because I'm saying an immobile part, a part that is specifically meant and modelled to be immobile, is suddenly a swivel.

I also don't have a Vindicator so can't answer that scenario. I know my Rhino storm Bolter can go any direction I place it. So can the Razorback Turret.

Ok, I now understand and agree with that as far as that goes. So If I model to head to the left, the 45 degree angle is that way, and if I model it to the right, the 45 degree angle is that way correct? It doesn't cover the legitimate possible building positions?

Correct. The neck isn't that far tilted to make a huge difference based on straight line flight. A Heldrake may favor one side or the other because of it, but it's not going to lose a game for you on a regular basis. But, that is another reason folks were so upset at the nerf. Still, rules are rules unless you get your opponent to agree to a house ruling otherwise.