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Alright, so I am going up against mainly space marines with the potential of necrons. I was wondering what the best Heavy support would be for small battles against these two armies.

If it helps you any, I have the Dark Vengence box set and a squad of chaos marines already.
Thanks

I've always been a fan of Obliterators. I feel that one can't go wrong with them especially if marking them with Nurgle or Tzeentch.

Hmm. Well, if the other two players are well established (have 2000+ points worth of models to choose from), it may be slow-going for you in any case.

Without being a comprehensive (or exhaustive) list, here are some possibilities:

1. Obliterators; They're way too expensive point-wise, and are best with Mark of Nurgle (and maybe Veterans of the Long War). Having Deep Strike and a number of weapon options gives them flexibility in their deployment options. They will get insta-killed by S8 unless marked, and typically die to massed shooting in any case.

2. Havocs; Still too expensive (compared to Space Marine Devastators). They do all right if in a bunker (Wall of Martyrs Imperial Bunker is a decent thing to pick up), but die like dogs in most other deployment locations. LasCannons for sure (unless you have anti-AV13+ covered, in which case: AutoCannons). They also benefit from Mark of Nurgle (if deployed in ruins/woods) and may benefit from Veterans of the Long War.

3. LasPred (Predator with Twin-Linked LasCannon on turret and two sponsons with LasCannons): These, at least, are relatively cheap. If you can keep it alive, it can do work on opposing vehicles.

Good luck!

I like Forgefiends, but you need two of them. Maybe with supporting Vindicator. They are not most competitive option because cost but not so bad either.

Obliterators are a good place to start. You can convert them out of Terminators and Green Stuff pretty easy if you don't like the Finecast models, which alot of people don't find too appealing.

They are a good Heavy Support generalist due to Obliterator weapons so would be a good intro to some of the most typical Heavy Weapons in 40k. Mark of Nurgle recommeneded, or possibly Mark of Tzeentch.

Chaos Rapiers have so far won me and held me in long enough, in games I have run them. Cyclo-Conversion Beamer with 48" Str 10 AP 1 Large Blast.

3 with 6 crewmen costs only 225 points. That gives you 3 Large Blast str 10 AP 1 shots. A measly 675 Points, nets you 9. Throw in a Sorcerer who knows Perfect Timing (Divination) and your little monsters Ignore Cover.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Chaos Rapiers have so far won me and held me in long enough, in games I have run them. Cyclo-Conversion Beamer with 48" Str 10 AP 1 Large Blast.

3 with 6 crewmen costs only 225 points. That gives you 3 Large Blast str 10 AP 1 shots. A measly 675 Points, nets you 9. Throw in a Sorcerer who knows Perfect Timing (Divination) and your little monsters Ignore Cover.

It may help to reference what publication has these rules. I'm assuming from the OP current army contents, that he/she may only hasve the CSM Codex.

Thanks for the input guys. if it helps you any more, the Necrons guy and the Salamanders guy are both relatively new to 40k so we probably wont be going over 2000 points. I'm thinking somwhere around 750-1250 points for the battle, so small skirmishes

Hmmm... At 750, I might not bring heavy support but instead use the Crimson Slaughter Supplement to get a squad of Plasma Chosen with Preferred Enemy... But a tri-Las predator would probably be a good choice too.

I am leaning towards the predator, but what about the Helbrute from the Dark Vengence set? should I field that in a small battle with only a couple of units on the board or should i put the points into something else?

Helbrutes really aren't that good, sorry to say, and Necrons can make easy work of it with Gauss weapons. I aimagine Space Marines with their special weapoons and heavy weapons wouldn't have too much trouble taking it down as well. However, there is a Helcult formation out there that makes them a bit better and works with your Cultists to give the Helbrute cover. I'd use it and try it out in a couple games. (There are also other Helbrute formations, but they require more than 1 Helbrute IIRC).

If you like it, great! If not, you could consider converting the Helbrute into a Daemon Prince.

The way I'm looking to make my army (because I'm in it for the fluff) is nurgle based, so I was thinking of taking Typhus. Would a Demon prince be a better substitute or should I pay the landraider price for Typhus?

And I think I might try the Helcult as I've seen mention of it before. I think I will buy a predator though. (Gotta get the forge world models, even if it costs me my entire tuition)

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Chaos Rapiers have so far won me and held me in long enough, in games I have run them. Cyclo-Conversion Beamer with 48" Str 10 AP 1 Large Blast.

3 with 6 crewmen costs only 225 points. That gives you 3 Large Blast str 10 AP 1 shots. A measly 675 Points, nets you 9. Throw in a Sorcerer who knows Perfect Timing (Divination) and your little monsters Ignore Cover.

If you can use Forge Wold then there are plenty of good choices like Rapiers, Sicaran and Fire Raptor. I think rules are in imperial armor 13 nowadays?

Maybe I'm dumb (haven't put a Helbrute on the table since they got 'adjusted' to 100 points): Aren't they in Elites?

DCannon4Life wrote:
Maybe I'm dumb (haven't put a Helbrute on the table since they got 'adjusted' to 100 points): Aren't they in Elites?

I believe they are taken out of the vehicles section. I'm not certain though.

 stomp56 wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:
Maybe I'm dumb (haven't put a Helbrute on the table since they got 'adjusted' to 100 points): Aren't they in Elites?

I believe they are taken out of the vehicles section. I'm not certain though.

They're elites

 jasper76 wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Chaos Rapiers have so far won me and held me in long enough, in games I have run them. Cyclo-Conversion Beamer with 48" Str 10 AP 1 Large Blast.

3 with 6 crewmen costs only 225 points. That gives you 3 Large Blast str 10 AP 1 shots. A measly 675 Points, nets you 9. Throw in a Sorcerer who knows Perfect Timing (Divination) and your little monsters Ignore Cover.

It may help to reference what publication has these rules. I'm assuming from the OP current army contents, that he/she may only hasve the CSM Codex.

The best units are not even in the core codex because phil kelly wrote csm bad. Honestly just sell the csm codex and play R&H from IA13.

 Filch wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Chaos Rapiers have so far won me and held me in long enough, in games I have run them. Cyclo-Conversion Beamer with 48" Str 10 AP 1 Large Blast.

3 with 6 crewmen costs only 225 points. That gives you 3 Large Blast str 10 AP 1 shots. A measly 675 Points, nets you 9. Throw in a Sorcerer who knows Perfect Timing (Divination) and your little monsters Ignore Cover.

It may help to reference what publication has these rules. I'm assuming from the OP current army contents, that he/she may only hasve the CSM Codex.

The best units are not even in the core codex because phil kelly wrote csm bad. Honestly just sell the csm codex and play R&H from IA13.

I can actually confirm this lol

The Elites, Heavy Support and Fast Attack portions of the CSM dex are pretty darn awful in comparison to the new IA13 Lost and the Damned book. Fire Raptors, Blight Drones, Heavy Weapons CSM, Sicaran Battle Tanks... It just completely out performs everything in the Dex.

CSM had a very good unit before nerf, heldrake. Now they should make it torrent again.

 Draco wrote:
CSM had a very good unit before nerf, heldrake. Now they should make it torrent again.

It's still torrent, but it doesn't have turret anymore.


But IA13 is a brilliant piece of work, without being overpowered either.

It's still torrent, and it's still pretty good, just that you can't fire it backwards now.

Now the only issues to deal with are how terrible Daemon Engines are in CC when they SPECIALIZE in it.

Thats a mighty nice Defiler you have there. It's a shame it dies to a Dreadnaught at double the points because it cant hit worth a damn with WS3. Thats a nice Maulerfiend you got there. Think it'll do wonders against that there MC or enemy Walker? Nope, guess again buddy, you're screwed trying to hit on 5s against anything worth it's salt. Better stick to Vindicators and hope to god you dont scatter back 12" right on top of yourself!

But seriously, why Daemon Engines arent Enately WS4 minimum when all their job (where applicable) was to Melee things to death and go toe 2 toe with other Vehicles (Maulerfiends, im looking at you) Yet they fail so horrendously at the simple task given to them is beyond me and any fan of Chaos.

How about a vindicator? Pie plates are cool right?

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 Filch wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Chaos Rapiers have so far won me and held me in long enough, in games I have run them. Cyclo-Conversion Beamer with 48" Str 10 AP 1 Large Blast.

3 with 6 crewmen costs only 225 points. That gives you 3 Large Blast str 10 AP 1 shots. A measly 675 Points, nets you 9. Throw in a Sorcerer who knows Perfect Timing (Divination) and your little monsters Ignore Cover.

It may help to reference what publication has these rules. I'm assuming from the OP current army contents, that he/she may only hasve the CSM Codex.

The best units are not even in the core codex because phil kelly wrote csm bad. Honestly just sell the csm codex and play R&H from IA13.

I can actually confirm this lol

The Elites, Heavy Support and Fast Attack portions of the CSM dex are pretty darn awful in comparison to the new IA13 Lost and the Damned book. Fire Raptors, Blight Drones, Heavy Weapons CSM, Sicaran Battle Tanks... It just completely out performs everything in the Dex.

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1382/31/1382312742803.jpg

They look awfully out of place in the 41st millenium. Unless a fleet of them somehow got sucked into a warp storm time bubble that transported them forth 10,000 years into the future, you'd have trouble explaining to your opponent why baroque legionnaires and 30k armor are suddenly among your mutated marines, daemons and cultists.


For heavies, I'm always a fan of the Defiler. It's such an iconic CSM thing, you'd be mad to not have it as part of your collection. So here's this giant crab-Dreadnought. Has Fleet (so you may re-roll charge distance), and while it does have only FSR 12/12/10, it has 4 hull points and a 5++ inv. save, which is the equivalent of having 6 HPs without any save, and a 5+ IWND to boot so thats more HPs technically, and as a nice little bonus also Daemon Forge. Unfortunately, the battle cannon is Ordnance so its a good idea to replace the reaper-autocannon for an extra cc-arm. I kid you not when I say that a giant crab defending your deployment zone with five S10 base attacks will make any deepstriker think twice about brazenly deploying in your base. Warp flame gargoyles on your guns are a great way to get some additional kills over the course of a game for very few points invested.

Changes to vehicle damage in 7th now give him a bit more survivability, as you're not as likely to lose him to a single shot as often. Also with changes to MC's laugh at their puny 1 smash as you power fist them six times on the charge at S10 plus hammer of wrath at S8.

Chaos Sicarans from IA are awesome.

 Sir Arun wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 Filch wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Chaos Rapiers have so far won me and held me in long enough, in games I have run them. Cyclo-Conversion Beamer with 48" Str 10 AP 1 Large Blast.

3 with 6 crewmen costs only 225 points. That gives you 3 Large Blast str 10 AP 1 shots. A measly 675 Points, nets you 9. Throw in a Sorcerer who knows Perfect Timing (Divination) and your little monsters Ignore Cover.

It may help to reference what publication has these rules. I'm assuming from the OP current army contents, that he/she may only hasve the CSM Codex.

The best units are not even in the core codex because phil kelly wrote csm bad. Honestly just sell the csm codex and play R&H from IA13.

I can actually confirm this lol

The Elites, Heavy Support and Fast Attack portions of the CSM dex are pretty darn awful in comparison to the new IA13 Lost and the Damned book. Fire Raptors, Blight Drones, Heavy Weapons CSM, Sicaran Battle Tanks... It just completely out performs everything in the Dex.

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1382/31/1382312742803.jpg

They look awfully out of place in the 41st millenium. Unless a fleet of them somehow got sucked into a warp storm time bubble that transported them forth 10,000 years into the future, you'd have trouble explaining to your opponent why baroque legionnaires and 30k armor are suddenly among your mutated marines, daemons and cultists.


For heavies, I'm always a fan of the Defiler. It's such an iconic CSM thing, you'd be mad to not have it as part of your collection. So here's this giant crab-Dreadnought. Has Fleet (so you may re-roll charge distance), and while it does have only FSR 12/12/10, it has 4 hull points and a 5++ inv. save, which is the equivalent of having 6 HPs without any save, and a 5+ IWND to boot so thats more HPs technically, and as a nice little bonus also Daemon Forge. Unfortunately, the battle cannon is Ordnance so its a good idea to replace the reaper-autocannon for an extra cc-arm. I kid you not when I say that a giant crab defending your deployment zone with five S10 base attacks will make any deepstriker think twice about brazenly deploying in your base. Warp flame gargoyles on your guns are a great way to get some additional kills over the course of a game for very few points invested.

Changes to vehicle damage in 7th now give him a bit more survivability, as you're not as likely to lose him to a single shot as often. Also with changes to MC's laugh at their puny 1 smash as you power fist them six times on the charge at S10 plus hammer of wrath at S8.

Plague Hulk from IA13 does Defiler better and cheaper.

The Soul Grinder also does Defiler better and cheaper too.

Well the Defiler has IWND, Soulblaze and usually +1 attack going for it which is nice.

If you have a helbrute and want to run it then take a helcult (see hellbrute dataslate).

This gives it rage and 3+ cover save (when cultists are close by) and gives the cultists fearless. Then if the brute dies the cultists also gain hatred.

Only down side is loosing objective secured, not filling your troops minimum and the brute having a kharn style backswing.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Well the Defiler has IWND, Soulblaze and usually +1 attack going for it which is nice.

The defiler also costs ~200 points, and IWND doesn't matter when you die in 1 round because you're AV12 and Spamming Str 6/7 in copious quantities is the new black.

No one cares about soul blaze and +1 attacks at WS 3 doesn't mean much, especially when you're destroyed before you get there.

Dreadnaughts with good weapons like an assault cannon or multimelta are bad and they're almost half the price. What on earth makes you think defilers are good? They are the 2nd worst unit in the codex (after mutilators), though warp talons would give them a run for their money.