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Hey Guys, noobie here wanting to get into 40k after playing warmachine for 2 years back in mk1. I hopped through 3 armies because I only wanted to field (buy and paint) models I liked and often times that proved unaffective. I'll try and keep this short winded.

Wow does GW make it hard to decide which army to choose. So many cool things, but need to buy 10 books to decide what would work best.

I'm looking for a small army, preferably 500pts based on this criteria in this order.

1) Tabletop cohesiveness (the units belong together)
2) Aesthetic HQ and additional unit (Everyone wants their pride and joys)
3) All comers list with relative competativeness
4) Customizable

Things I love are lightning claws, wings and axes... but I like and will need dakka.

After many months of studying fluff and army lists I have compiled 2 basic list outlines.

Space Marine Army
HQ with Jump Pack
Veteren Vanguard/Sanguinary type unit (that can be winged)
x2 SM squad in rhino
or substitute dreadnaught

Khorne Daemons new codex
Juggerloard
blood crushers
??
(Dunno point counts but guessing i'd want either maulerfiends, bezerkers in Land Raider or CSM in Rhino, or Termies for Formation, or some kind of ranged support)

Space Marines seem to meet my criteria, but the choice in chapter confuses me.
I'd want my elite guys to rock in cc while the others excelled in shooting... due to the latter I'm thinking Vanilla over Blood Angels, but open to any ideas that allow jump packs.

Chaos holds a spot in each of our hearts, and Juggerloards with blood crushers and maulerfiends is too cool. It's also the newest and shiniest. I am most concerned about how well they'll play.

Leaning towards the vanilla codex, but afraid I'm going to miss out on something a dif chapter can have, and bolters and chainswords belong on hellbeast ridden heritics.

Can't say anything of the Daemonites yet, but Space Marines are pretty versatile. 500 points is on the low end, but I'd say you could forge a pretty cohesive SM task force. The kits are nicely done, up and including the chapter master, so you can build exactly the HQs you like. While SM aren't top tier, they are very versatile.

Chaos is more fun. ;-)

Chaos if you want to paint models, Sm if you want to play

The details on chaos tend to make marines look plain and dull by comparison.

Both can perform pretty well - it's mostly up to you to decide which one you like more fluffwise.

You sound more into CSM aesthetic, but Loyalists sound like closer to your playstyle. I'd suggest CSM.

Loyalists do a better job of backing up some skirmishers with dakka, which sounds to be your style. CSM does a better job of a handful of nasty threats all at once, with decent dakka backup.

Your post sounds to be more of the first's tactics. On looks/fluff/personality, your post screams CSM. Go with the army that speaks to you. CSM can do what you want, and are the models you want.

On first thought, BA seems like an ideal compromise. Wings and loyalists. But despite their loyalist screed, their play style is probably less what you're looking for. And why would you pick an army that can have a unit of winged angels, when you can have demon wings on just about whoever you feel like.

You could even do fallen BA decendents. Use the CSM book for CSM, but chaosafy some Sanguinary Guard. Have everything you like.

In the end, go with what gets you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bottom line:
Do you want to model well-discilpined Super Soldiers, with their shiny armor and aggressive gear, or half-crazed zelots or psicopaths, each with their own unique brand of insanity?

Coherence or uniqueness.

Thanks for your guys replys help.

Bharring: I' over all I like the space marines appearance more, but there are several stand out units in Chaos that are awesome (Juggernauts CSM), but filled with ones I dont (Daemons Helldrake.)

"Both can perform pretty well - it's mostly up to you to decide which one you like more fluffwise."

I guess I'm trying to ask you guys to decide for me? Haha


I felt like Space Marines was the solid choice last night, now you have me convinced chaos is the way to go.

Also noticed I could get the Daemonkin and theoretically run a zero demon army.... I think.

Or you could get Chaos Space Marines and actually run a zero daemon army. Daemons aren't in the CSM codex other than former Marines that have become Daemon Princes, Warp Talons and other versions of hybrids like that. If you don't like Daemons, the the Khorne codex all about sacrificing humans to bring about daemons isn't the right choice from a fluff perspective. And from a gaming perspective, the daemons are pretty powerful and should be included.

For the Space Marines though, there's not much hope for all Assault Marine or Jump Pack armies anymore. There is one Forge World model that still allows it I think, Korvydae (spelling?) of the Raven Guard. And Shrike has rules issues right now with how Infiltrate has been written. Likely not to get fixed.

I'd actually suggest Space Marines anyway though. Chaos has strengths but apart from those couple units you mentioned, not sure you'll like what makes the army good. And if you don't make the army good, the army sucks. That has atleast been my experience walking over Chaos lists but KhorneKin might be a very new beast. I know that parts of KhorneKin make me want to start up a Chaos army myself. But I have a lot of fun still using my various flavors of Space Marines.

Sounds like more of a Loyalist, from your response, actually.


If you don't want Demons or Demon Engines, asthetics-wise, go loyalist IMO. Sounds like you want the solid, polished feel of super soldiers who still have some of their marbles.

It definitely seems like you should go with Space Marines. If you do not like daemons or daemon engines, you have very few choices left to make an effective army. Additionally, if you are looking for specialized units, Space Marines definitely offer more options.

Ahhhhh, the space marines.

Everybody's first 40k army. I do not understand the hold they have over all of us when we first enter the game, but I will not seek to stop you.

My advice is to look into Blood Angels. Check out the starter kit (something of Baal?) and maybe look into adding Sanguinary Guard and maybe check out the Space Hulk board game? (It's a fun game and comes with a whole bunch of Blood Angel terminator models, more than you'd get if you bought two Termy boxes, plus they're in cooler poses)

You can always run renegade marines. Use the loyalist SM codex but the CSM models mostly.

By far my favorite as I tend away from excessive daemonic stuff.

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:
Chaos if you want to paint models, Sm if you want to play

The details on chaos tend to make marines look plain and dull by comparison.

The basic Chaos Marine kit is one of the ugliest in the product range.

If they all looked like the Dark Vengeance Chosen, maybe. But the standard Chaos Marine/Berzerker kit is horrible.

If price is less of an object but detail is a must, can always use Sternguard/Vanguard kits for parts. But trading Space Marines for Chaos Marines over "detail" is like shooting yourself in the face. There may be more "detail" on the Chaos Marine kits, but it's all bad. ,

Especially since his followup post strongly suggests its the Loyalist details he likes...

It's possible to run an effective CSM list without daemons and daemon engines whatsoever. But that's definitely NOT Khorne DAEMONkin you're looking for as daemons are like half of their army

However, you're not utilising CSM to full potential without their daemonic part. For example, maulerfiends are amazing in a fast army, heldrakes help a lot with board controle and add strong ap3 dakka, daemon allies can help out tremendously - i prefer tzeenchian for easy warpcharge generation and summoning to help out CSM advance.

If you're absolutely against daemons of any sort, you might look into other armies. Maybe not just marines? Cause when you talk about an assaulty army with decent ranged support i'm thinking bout orks and dark eldar first

 koooaei wrote:
It's possible to run an effective CSM list without daemons and daemon engines whatsoever.

Honestly, I have a hard time figuring out lists you're talking about. What people generally suggest is that there's not much in the codex besides oblis, drakes, spawns and the like. I don't think it falls under "not daemonic stuff".
They are also nice as primary detachment for daemon-heavy armies (used to avoid instability), but that won't work for OP either I suppose.

FW has nice additions, but they doesn't look like something that can be army's mainstay either.

As to OP's question, I'll second the thing that was said already, there's nothing stopping you from using "counts as" as you please, especially if you like aesthetics of one army and mech of another. We've seen Khorne's host with his champions, hounds and juggernauts played using SW codex, or parking lot of hovering Imperium-brand gothic "chapels" (played by Eldar rules)... Pulling something similar off may be fun.

 Barrogh wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
It's possible to run an effective CSM list without daemons and daemon engines whatsoever.

Honestly, I have a hard time figuring out lists you're talking about. What people generally suggest is that there's not much in the codex besides oblis, drakes, spawns and the like. I don't think it falls under "not daemonic stuff".

I have positive experience running 20-strong marines (slaaneshits or khornates) with Cypher and Huron/Ahriman for infiltrate supported by rhino marines, oblis/plasma termies, spawns...and tzeench daemons for WC generation and summoning to get better board controle and more WC if i get sacrafice. But you can easilly swap them for something else like long-ranged support that the list lacks. Havoks, predators, FW options or simply more oblis. I just like to have this versatile summoning tool. Need to support the frontlines - get daemonettes. Need to bauble wrap or rush the particular part of the field - get daemonettes. Want to summon something with a boob - get daemonettes...But seriously, flesh hounds, extra pink horrors, plaguebearers to glance heavy tanks - they're all great. Oh, and daemonettes. But once again, daemons are just support here. Can do fine without them.

As for the list's performance, a huge blob of marines with infiltrate, shrowded, atsknf and H&R potentially supported by invisibility is very potent. Whereas slaaneshits are notisably more durable thanks to FNP and ini5, khornates are more choppy, can hurt t8 and can reroll charge ranges which is huge.

Another thing i've managed to run with unexpectedly good results is murderpack. The list looks the same but you swap ahriman/huron for a bikersorc that goes with spawns and a huge blob with Cypher for a murderpack.

I'm not a fan of drakes simply cause they're flyers. With all the drawbacks that flyers have. Unreliable reserves, no scoring unless you land, limited movement.