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I have a 400 point tournament coming up that will allow unbound lists.

It's meant to be fairly relaxed, but I'll be very surprised if there aren't at least 2-3 people who bring something nasty like an Imperial Knight (or I suppose 2 Riptides, 2 Hive Tyrants or Wraithknight & friends, but I think the Imperial Knight will be the most likely fun-killer). I normally play Daemons and have most things in that codex, but I also have some CSM as well as some of the things in Imperial Armour 13 (Sicaran, Whirlwind Scorpius).

So what can I bring that's fairly competitive, stands a fighting chance against a Knight or friends, but still isn't total cheese at 400 points?

Herald of Tzeentch, Pink Horrors and Pink Horrors.

Play for the Objectives, otherwise it isn't a tournament worth playing in. If you play for the objectives you win hands down. He will target 1 - 2 units, trying to blast them away, you just summon more, and more, and more.

Low point Daemon Army Lists do extremely well with Summoning being a nasty bit to deal with.

Summon Pink Horrors to make sure your WCs are secure and capable of generating your required amounts each turn. Take the Portaglyph on your herald so you can bring out Daemonettes or Pink Horrors as well (Remember, even a single Pink Horror generated a WC point, and 1-3 Daemonettes still move incredibly fast across the battlefield.)

If your Pink Horrors manage to roll for Incursion, Fast attack, surround his Knight with Seekers and laugh, forcing him to either engage them or waste a turn running around them. If you dont outright prevent his movements entirely for the rest of the game.

You can field a nice Drop Podding Sternguard Melta/Grav army at 400pts. Unbound opens up options.

SJ

Just FYI, with the IK FAQ, a single IK is now a legal army, and that single knight can be your warlord. As such, he'll get a free seneschal upgrade, so enjoy your 3++, WS5 and BS5 as well as being a character, so now you can challenge enemy characters (especially ones who carry melta bombs) to play catch the Reaper Chainsword.

Bring a flyrant with E-Grubs and hope to get warp lance for best results.

 Drasius wrote:
Just FYI, with the IK FAQ, a single IK is now a legal army, and that single knight can be your warlord. As such, he'll get a free seneschal upgrade, so enjoy your 3++, WS5 and BS5 as well as being a character, so now you can challenge enemy characters (especially ones who carry melta bombs) to play catch the Reaper Chainsword.

Bring a flyrant with E-Grubs and hope to get warp lance for best results.

really? how's that work with allies? can I ally in a single knight and make it my Warlord?

edit: ahh I seem, only if my army has no characters

 Drasius wrote:
Just FYI, with the IK FAQ, a single IK is now a legal army, and that single knight can be your warlord. As such, he'll get a free seneschal upgrade, so enjoy your 3++, WS5 and BS5 as well as being a character, so now you can challenge enemy characters (especially ones who carry melta bombs) to play catch the Reaper Chainsword.

Bring a flyrant with E-Grubs and hope to get warp lance for best results.

Nope. You need a minimum of 3 IKs in an army to grant one Warlord, and receive the Seneschal upgrade. A single Knight does not qualify.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Just FYI, with the IK FAQ, a single IK is now a legal army, and that single knight can be your warlord. As such, he'll get a free seneschal upgrade, so enjoy your 3++, WS5 and BS5 as well as being a character, so now you can challenge enemy characters (especially ones who carry melta bombs) to play catch the Reaper Chainsword.

Bring a flyrant with E-Grubs and hope to get warp lance for best results.

Nope. You need a minimum of 3 IKs in an army to grant one Warlord, and receive the Seneschal upgrade. A single Knight does not qualify.

SJ

That said, if you've got no other characters you can make it the Warlord (and become a character and have 1/6 chance of becoming Seneschal).

Ah, didn't catch the last bit, my bad. Frozocrone is correct, you've got a 1/6 chance, but IMHO it's never worth rolling on that table since being hit on 3's is far, far worse of a penalty than hitting on 3's is a benefit (not to mention you're going to be outclassed against most beatstick HQ's anyway).

 Frozocrone wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Just FYI, with the IK FAQ, a single IK is now a legal army, and that single knight can be your warlord. As such, he'll get a free seneschal upgrade, so enjoy your 3++, WS5 and BS5 as well as being a character, so now you can challenge enemy characters (especially ones who carry melta bombs) to play catch the Reaper Chainsword.

Bring a flyrant with E-Grubs and hope to get warp lance for best results.

Nope. You need a minimum of 3 IKs in an army to grant one Warlord, and receive the Seneschal upgrade. A single Knight does not qualify.

SJ

That said, if you've got no other characters you can make it the Warlord (and become a character and have 1/6 chance of becoming Seneschal).

Nope. You can make it the warlord if you have no characters, but it doesn't become a character and hence doesn't get a warlord trait - those are the command benefits of an Imperial Knight detachment, which needs a minimum of 3 knights to unlock that option.

Ah, didn't catch the last bit, my bad. Frozocrone is correct, you've got a 1/6 chance, but IMHO it's never worth rolling on that table since being hit on 3's is far, far worse of a penalty than hitting on 3's is a benefit (not to mention you're going to be outclassed against most beatstick HQ's anyway).

It's the Ion shield save which I think matters more than the WS/BS change.


400 points is an extreme one for Imperial Knights - you get one unit, which is fast, and tough but can only be in one place at once. If you're playing Maelstrom of war, you should be able to pick up objectives far faster than he can.

Yeah I don't think you can make a knight a character .

If they are taking a knights, you can take belakor. He will win.

A bunch of meganobz or tankbustas in trucks or gun wagons will murderise more than one knight.

Msu just rolling around the map capturing points.

A single knight is not really all that great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be honest, i think that summoning would be way more frightening at such low pt games. You don't even need to go unbound.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Yeah I don't think you can make a knight a character .

If they are taking a knights, you can take belakor. He will win.

Yes Be'lakor provided I can get off invisibility could probably take down a Knight. I've found in normal games, unsupported he can take down a Knight ~70% of the time. Which is why I prefer to send him in with a unit or two of Screamers.

At 400 points, if I take Be'lakor, I only have enough points for 8 Chaos Furies (bounce them around grabbing objectives), 3 Nurglings (infiltrate them onto an objective) or a basic Herald of Tzeentch (hide and try to summon stuff). Since all my warp charge will probably be used up by Be'lakor, I think that the Nurglings or Furies are the only sensible options. Not sure which would be best, but at least my Nurglings are painted.

However this is sort of fighting cheese with cheese. Great if I'm matched up against a Knight, but not much fun for anyone else. If I get there and it's all Knights, Riptides, Wraithknights, etc perhaps I'll bring out Be'lakor. Otherwise I'll stick to a more conventional list.

Assuming you have all the modles in the world and if you are playing objectives:

130 renegades in 13 units. Chuck in a 10pt upgrade somewhere.

What can a knight/2 DPs/2walkrants/wraithknight do against that?

Or even better don't go unbound and take:
Arch demagogue
4 disciples with autocannon

15 renegades (put arch demagogue here)
110 renegades in 11 units.

Now you have 12 OS units.

Laugh when they say it's a boring game and just point at the knight.

For sheer comedy value, you forgot Master of the Horde to keep respawning units as they die....

locarno24 wrote:
Nope. You can make it the warlord if you have no characters, but it doesn't become a character and hence doesn't get a warlord trait - those are the command benefits of an Imperial Knight detachment, which needs a minimum of 3 knights to unlock that option.

It was FAQ'd (well amended) but still. I only came across it as my mate who used one against me wasn't sure if it had Fleet or not so we went FAQ searching :')

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Imperial_Knights_EN.pdf

The FAQ tells us that you need only one Knight (and no other characters) in order to make that Knight a Warlord; however, you need at least three Knights in order to make that Warlord Knight both a character and Seneschal. Which goes back to my original statement that an army consisting of a single Knight cannot be a Seneschal.

SJ

So back to the original problem of defeating a Knight at 400 points with daemons.

I either need to run Be'lakor with 50 points of chaff. Starting to think 5 Chaos Furies with Mark of Slaanesh might be the chaff I need. Easy to hide, fleet, jump infantry and +3" to run, so they should be OK at running away & grabbing objectives, but not much else.

Or I need to be able to summon stuff and play for objectives. At 400 points there's not much room to get a proper Daemon factory in there. So 1-2 units of Pink Horrors and probably a Herald of Tzeentch for the Portaglyph. And I also need something to run interference before the factory gets working (will probably be playing on 4'x4' boards) - perfect for 1-2 small units of Flesh Hounds. So my options are:

List 1 (4 Warp Charge)
Herald of Tzeentch (level 2 psyker, exalted reward)
12 Pink Horrors
6 Flesh Hounds
6 Flesh Hounds

List 2 (6 Warp Charge)
Herald of Tzeentch (level 2 psyker, exalted reward)
11 Pink Horrors
11 Pink Horrors
6 Flesh Hounds

List 3 (4 Warp Charge)
Herald of Tzeentch (level 2 psyker, exalted reward)
12 Pink Horrors
6 Flesh Hounds
6 Flesh Hounds

List 4 (4 Warp Charge)
12 Pink Horrors
11 Pink Horrors
6 Flesh Hounds
6 Flesh Hounds

Nothing there that could defeat a Knight unless I get possession for my Horrors and I manage to summon a couple of Greater Daemons. But if I can keep summoning stuff to it occupied, whilst I manage to grab more objectives than him, I should probably be able to pull off a win. Better hope we don't roll up Purge the Alien.

So what would be more fun to play against for everyone else who just brings a standard list? I don't want to be competitive against Knights and dual Riptides by becoming a TFG myself.

Im going to throw you a list, let me know what you think. Ive used this list before in similar games at 400 points and I won rather easily.

HQ

Herald of Tzeentch - Exalted (Portaglyph), ML3 - 125
The Blue Scribed - 81

Troops

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch x 11 - Iridicent Horrors - 104
Pink Horrors of Tzeentch x 10 - 90

This gives you 6 WCs to begin the game with. the Blue Scribes can give you a Guaranteed summon because of their Scrolls of Sorcery if you roll for it on the Maelefic tree.

On adverage lets just say you roll a 3 for WCs at the begining of your turn. This gives you 9 to play around with. Since its the begining of your turn, you roll for your Portaglyph, if you succeed summon D6 Pink Horrors granting you +1 WC for a total of 10

Now you have 2 chances to Summon. Use 5 dice each. Roll for your Blue Scribes. If you roll #4 #5 or #6 you can Bring even MORE to the field. #4 Nets you a Herald of Tzeentch with 30 points of Upgrades (Probably should take +1 ML) If you get #5 Summon in some Plague Drones and simply run them at his Knight and lock it in combat for a turn and possibly glance it once or twice, either way, it's kept busy while you position yourself for objectives. Roll #6? Perfect, you get a free Bloodthirster, Lord of Change, Great Unclean One or Keeper of Secrets.

If you roll #6 be mindful, that your 81 Point Model just turned into a 230+ point model

That's all I can suggest for things at that low of point values.

So there were no Imperial Knights, Riptides, Wraithknights or other big nasties. So no need to bring Be'lakor. And most of the lists were quite friendly, so I decided not to go all out summoning spam. Here's what I brought in the end:

Herald of Tzeentch with exalted gift and level 2 psyker
12 Pink Horrors
6 Flesh Hounds
6 Flesh Hounds

I won my first four games against Space Marines (librarian, dreadnought and tacticals), Chaos Space Marines (chaos lord, plague marines, tacticals), Blood Angels (razorback with assault cannon, death company and tacticals) and Tyranids (tervigon, hormagaunts, zoanthrope).

But then I lost my last game against a list with a Culexus, 2 Thudd Guns, a Heavy Mortar and some Krieg Death Riders. I was tired and didn't play too well, but was also unlucky with my objective cards and successful summoning was too little too late.

So I ended up coming second. Lots of fun, though I did feel a bit guilty in the first game when my summoning got out of control and really dominated the game.