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I bought the new Khorne Daemonkin codex and I have to admit that this codex feels rather odd and out of place. Just how out of place didn't hit me to full effect until this morning after reading a BoLS article...

Kharn the Betrayer is NOT in the codex. How is it that, by GW's own description, "Khârn is Khorne's most ardent warrior and lives only to slay in the name of the Lord of Skulls." not included in this codex?

What is Dakka's opinion of this codex? Does it feel forced? Does it seem like it's more a conduit to sell the new Bloodthirster rather an extension on the game?

Please leave the competitive tournament bull-plop at the door.

MIght I suggest reading the fluff in the book? Once you do, it will make more sense as to WHY they left out Kharn.

Yes, Kharn is favored by Khorne, and yes, Kharn follows the creed of Khorne to the letter, but he doesn't give two craps about daemons, and isn't about to shower devotion onto a Herald or Bloodthirster. He'd likely cut a BT's head off before he'd take orders from it and he'd never, EVER sacrifice himself to bring said BT into the material realm. Also, Daemonkin don't give a crap about some vendetta against the Imperium, they just want to bring Khorne's particular brand of Chaosy goodness into the universe through violence. So while Kharn may ally with a Daemonkin cult, he'd never be a formal member of one.

Karanak isn't in the book either, and again, it makes sense. Karanak is only sent out by Khorne directly to kill those that have gained his ire. Karanak is not summoned in the normal sense, nor is he drawn to conflict, so he would not be involved in the shenanigans of Daemonkin. In this case, just like Kharn, he fits better as an ally.

As a new player with chaos marines and looking to pick up my first codex:

Would you suggest the Khornedex or CSM?

 targetdg15 wrote:
As a new player with chaos marines and looking to pick up my first codex:

Would you suggest the Khornedex or CSM?

I'm hardly an expert, but I own both dexes and I would say that it depends on what style you intend to play. I think the Khornedex is probably better because of the special rules (Blood Tithe, etc.), but the regular CSM dex has a bigger variety of troops and vehicles and can take all marks of chaos (or none) rather than being stuck aligned to Khorne.

 targetdg15 wrote:
As a new player with chaos marines and looking to pick up my first codex:

Would you suggest the Khornedex or CSM?

As already stated, it largely depends on your personal preference of play style. Khorne Daemonkin is meant to be primarily an all-out assault force with some supporting firepower. CSM is more of a all-around codex, but has the same pitfalls as other jack of all trades, master of none style armies.

As for variety and number of units, its kind of a wash between the two. Daemonkin get most of the non-god specific units, but some of the exceptions are tough pills to swallow (no Havocs or Obliterators), but all of the vehicles are intact, minus a Slaanesh inspired upgrade. Additionally, they get all of the Khorne specific units from both CSM and Daemons, as well as Soulgrinders, so it kind of comes out ahead as far as number of units, but loses just a bit of diversity.

I think when it comes to sheer power, its still very early, but I think Daemonkin come out on top against CSM, but just barely. I don't think they are going to be rolling roughshod through the tournament scene, but with the right builds, and some smart aggressive play, It hink they can hold their own against most armies. The Blood Tithe rule is a very nice, and fluffy, addition and the Decurian-like Blood Host detachment is potent (although not as potent as the Decurian itself).

Are Bloodletters still the same points cost and are they the same model? A recent mono Khorne game really discouraged me from wanting to spend $50 on a codex to play the same crappy daemons I haven't enjoyed fielding ever.

Why would kharn(not a demon) be in a codex called demonkin?

Bloodletters mininum unit size is now 8 (Khorn'e #) so the point price is cheaper.

Thanks for the input, I'm going Daemonkin then...

Why? I'm a fluff-guy, the restrictions don't really Nyerere with the models I want to buy and I'm hoping that the blood tithe can be used to buffer my been losses..

lustigjh wrote:
Are Bloodletters still the same points cost and are they the same model? A recent mono Khorne game really discouraged me from wanting to spend $50 on a codex to play the same crappy daemons I haven't enjoyed fielding ever.

Same cost and models, but smaller unit size (starts at 8 models instead of 10). There were no rules or points changes for the most part, but CSM units that had the Daemon special rule gained Daemon of Khorne for a small point increase (believe its like 1 point for infantry, 5 points for daemon engines). Of course, all mortal units have the cost of the Mark of Khorne built in.

However, the interaction and synergy with the CSM units and the Daemon units, along with the Blood Tithe rules, are where the differences are. If you have a heldrake and a Forgefiend, Skullcannons, and Soulgrinders (you can have loads of them in a Blood Cult) laying down fire, those packs of Bloodletters and Berzerkers suddenly become more capable of actually reaching combat, especially if you are able to fire off the FnP blood tithe reward. Several small cultist squads are great for generating Blood Tithe points, and can actually be made dangerous with some of the early rewards (hordes of cultists with Rage and Furious Charge=unpleasant surprise).

I reckon you can build an MSU army that really causes issues for the high volume shooting builds.
The gorepack is excellent.

Trade off is keeping enough heavy hitters to deal with knights.(you won't be shooting them down) .

I think it works best with some other chaos stuff allied in.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
Are Bloodletters still the same points cost and are they the same model? A recent mono Khorne game really discouraged me from wanting to spend $50 on a codex to play the same crappy daemons I haven't enjoyed fielding ever.

Same cost and models, but smaller unit size (starts at 8 models instead of 10). There were no rules or points changes for the most part, but CSM units that had the Daemon special rule gained Daemon of Khorne for a small point increase (believe its like 1 point for infantry, 5 points for daemon engines). Of course, all mortal units have the cost of the Mark of Khorne built in.

However, the interaction and synergy with the CSM units and the Daemon units, along with the Blood Tithe rules, are where the differences are. If you have a heldrake and a Forgefiend, Skullcannons, and Soulgrinders (you can have loads of them in a Blood Cult) laying down fire, those packs of Bloodletters and Berzerkers suddenly become more capable of actually reaching combat, especially if you are able to fire off the FnP blood tithe reward. Several small cultist squads are great for generating Blood Tithe points, and can actually be made dangerous with some of the early rewards (hordes of cultists with Rage and Furious Charge=unpleasant surprise).

I believe they also lack Demonic Instability which is nice and aren't affected by Winds of Chaos.

The most I'm taking away from this codex is the easy inclusion of Khorne Daemons like Flesh Hounds and Bloodcrushers and the buffs on specific units in Formations. Been wanting CSM for a while but these KhorneKin Formations that give Move Through Cover and Rending HOW to Bikes, and other buffs to other units, make it pretty friggin good. Specifically for my Red Corsairs I'm going to be doing. As an overall army I'm more meh about it than anything else, but it's building up CSM units with much needed buffs. Those Bikers now have almost the same buffs as White Scars and don't take up valuable Fast Attack slots. Termicide units don't take up Elites. There is so much more options as just allies of an Undivided CSM force. Makes me really hope for more of these Daemonkin styles.

die toten hosen wrote:
Why would kharn(not a demon) be in a codex called demonkin?

Why would Khorne Berzerkers (not daemons) be in a codex called daemonkin?

It really improved the Daemon Models of the Codex as they all get fearless which is a pretty powerful mechanic.

It improves the base Chaos Space Marine because with little to no effort you can get FNP.

It improves all of the Daemon Models, Warmachines like Maulers to be better as they can all be give RAGE.

It improves the CSM army selection by giving you access to the best of the best with you easily being able to take Multiple Heldrakes and Soulgrinders in the same list.

It improves the CSM codex by allowing you to take 4 Squads of Bikers and 4 Squads of Hounds through taking of a Formation.

It improves Bloodletters in a a formation by giving them +1 attack on the charge, and gives them access to feel no pain.

Daemons with FNP, have a 5++ , then a 5++ which is pretty great.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Why would kharn(not a demon) be in a codex called demonkin?

Why would Khorne Berzerkers (not daemons) be in a codex called daemonkin?

in hopes to boost sales?

kharn kills things, all the things, all the time, doesn't worship khorne. IS KHORNE AFFILIATED he's not a hardcore worshiper. he's more grand champ by default.

zerkers however, worship khorne and intentionally spill blood in his name, whereas kharn spills blood cuz he likes to watch it flow.

I would say the Khorne Daemonkin is actually a considerably more balanced and overall better functioning codex. Vastly better balance than CSM and a much more streamlined playing experience than Chaos Daemons (random charts for the random chart god!).

The buff to daemons is massive. Fearless is a vastly better rule to have than daemonic instability. It was not that difficult to make units of daemons and uber nasty MC disappear. A perfect example is catching a blood thirster and a unit of blood letters in the same charge. With fearless you have to kill both units to kill both units, with daemonic stability you kill the blood letters and the blood thirster will die to daemonic instability.

The ability to gain blood points for champions makes champs actually serve a purpose other than to drain points from your army and force you to remember the challenge rules. Let the champ take a bullet early and get some FnP or +1 attack for the unit.

The blood tithe rules actually makes rhinos somewhat useful. The average destiny of a rhino is to move 0-2 turns, block LoS 0-2 turns, and die. The only armies which have been effective using rhinos since Hp were introduced have been those which could scout them forward. Now your rhino dying is actually a good thing as a few of those and you get FnP for your army.

The blood tithe abilities are a massive help. It is very likely you will have 3 blood points a turn without any real effort either through loosing units or killing units, that is FnP army wide. Not bad.

For me it's

Chaos Daemons
Khornate Daemonkin
Chaos Space Marine

Imma do a full write up on it eventually, but basically it's a better codex than CSM but not as good as CD.

Well yeah, but so are most of the other codecies in the game. 'Not as bad as cat poo but not as good as gold bricks' isn't the most precise scale. Doesn't change the fact I'm looking forward to the write up though.

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
Why would kharn(not a demon) be in a codex called demonkin?

Why would Khorne Berzerkers (not daemons) be in a codex called daemonkin?

I know rite? Why aren't the real-world Damonkins legally identified as demons?

They are akin to the daemons of Khorne in that the Khornate CSM are all devote servants to the Blood God, and thus are Daemonkins. That's good enough to include them in a codex called Khorne Daemonkins, for GW standards anyways.

ButI have question why a Khorne Daemonkin codex? Don't get me wrong just for the fluff I would buy a Khorne dex, but why such a strange categorization? Why not just "Codex: Khorne" or "Codex: Slaves to the Blood God"? From what I've heard there really isn't a lot of units available to the daemonkins. Why must a Khorne Daemonkin player resolve to having additional detachments from C: Chaos Daemons or C:CSM if they want to include Skarband or Kharn in their armies?

Also... could somebody kindly post a brief note on the changed fluff in Daemonkins? I'm not planning on buying the dex, not for a while.

There's no changed fluff. Khorne Demonkin has nothing to do with the World Eaters or any of the Traitor Legions. If you want a fluff reason why Kharn is not included, that is it.

Khorne Demonkin warbands are basically cult worshippers of Khorne, who go around spilling blood in Khorne's name in order to summon Demons into realspace. These Demons then join up with the warband and continue on spilling blood and taking skulls long after all the mortal warriors are dead (the worship of Khorne is so strong that the summoned demons don't actually time-out back into the warp).

Skarbrand is not included because he is a traitor to Khorne. Karanak is the oddest exclusion, since Khorne sending his favoured pet hound to run around with a Demonkin Warband would seem to me to fit the Demonkin fluff pretty well.

Puting Kharn aside, there is still a few things that i don't get.

-Why triple the points cost of the Axe of Khorne?, they could've made a different point cost depending on the model, 10 pts for Deamons , 20 for Marines, also i don't get why Deamons lost the acces to the Axe...
-No "Zerkers" upgrade for Lord, Possessed and Termies, wich is sad imo.
-WHy completly ripping off the Chaos Boons table, i mean characters are still forced into challenge but they arn't any better then anyone else, and they don't get anything out of it, could have done a "simplified" Boons table with like 16 results that fitted khorne and be done with it; +1A/WS/I/T/W, Shred, ID in melee, EW, Hatred, Psy-eater, Adamentium will, SPawn and DP.
-Why there is no Destructor blade and Bulldozer Blade or even Dirge casters upgrades?, and don't start "Dirge casters are slaaneshi" they arn't, even in 3.5Dex Dirge casters are Chais universal, WArp Amps where Slaaneshi.
-A bit sad that there is no "move+run+assault" Blood Tithe, but hey, we can't make an army focused on CC be actually good for CC now do we?...
-Would have liked to see a formation with the Slaugtherfiends Pack, for those who don't know what the heck it is; Imagine a Zerker CHampion riding a Defiler into battle like a mount, the Defiler had WS5, Init4 and +1A, also those Defilers could run on 2D6 and assault, and zerkers could "hang on" the hull/hooks/chains on the defiler to use it as a transport and assault after the run move, if the dices gave a double, you would have one of the Zerkers squished by the claws of the defiler, it was funny as hell.

Would have loved to see this in a formation with 1-3 Defilers, 0-3 Maulerfiends, with all of them mounted by a Crazed Zerker.

NOw the dex as some nifthy qualities and can be fun from what i've seen, and some of the poeple i know who played it, ad mixed results, but over all had fun, wich is the most important i think.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Puting Kharn aside, there is still a few things that i don't get.

-Why triple the points cost of the Axe of Khorne?, they could've made a different point cost depending on the model, 10 pts for Deamons , 20 for Marines, also i don't get why Deamons lost the acces to the Axe...
-No "Zerkers" upgrade for Lord, Possessed and Termies, wich is sad imo.
-WHy completly ripping off the Chaos Boons table, i mean characters are still forced into challenge but they arn't any better then anyone else, and they don't get anything out of it, could have done a "simplified" Boons table with like 16 results that fitted khorne and be done with it; +1A/WS/I/T/W, Shred, ID in melee, EW, Hatred, Psy-eater, Adamentium will, SPawn and DP.
-Why there is no Destructor blade and Bulldozer Blade or even Dirge casters upgrades?, and don't start "Dirge casters are slaaneshi" they arn't, even in 3.5Dex Dirge casters are Chais universal, WArp Amps where Slaaneshi.
-A bit sad that there is no "move+run+assault" Blood Tithe, but hey, we can't make an army focused on CC be actually good for CC now do we?...
-Would have liked to see a formation with the Slaugtherfiends Pack, for those who don't know what the heck it is; Imagine a Zerker CHampion riding a Defiler into battle like a mount, the Defiler had WS5, Init4 and +1A, also those Defilers could run on 2D6 and assault, and zerkers could "hang on" the hull/hooks/chains on the defiler to use it as a transport and assault after the run move, if the dices gave a double, you would have one of the Zerkers squished by the claws of the defiler, it was funny as hell.

Would have loved to see this in a formation with 1-3 Defilers, 0-3 Maulerfiends, with all of them mounted by a Crazed Zerker.

NOw the dex as some nifthy qualities and can be fun from what i've seen, and some of the poeple i know who played it, ad mixed results, but over all had fun, wich is the most important i think.

Agree with most of that. Let's also not forget that Skulltaker lost his juggernaut option, and terminators (including the champ) can't take the axe of khorne.

 GoonBandito wrote:
There's no changed fluff. Khorne Demonkin has nothing to do with the World Eaters or any of the Traitor Legions. If you want a fluff reason why Kharn is not included, that is it.

Khorne Demonkin warbands are basically cult worshippers of Khorne, who go around spilling blood in Khorne's name in order to summon Demons into realspace. These Demons then join up with the warband and continue on spilling blood and taking skulls long after all the mortal warriors are dead (the worship of Khorne is so strong that the summoned demons don't actually time-out back into the warp).

Skarbrand is not included because he is a traitor to Khorne. Karanak is the oddest exclusion, since Khorne sending his favoured pet hound to run around with a Demonkin Warband would seem to me to fit the Demonkin fluff pretty well.

I disagree on Karanak, he's probably the easiest one to explain not being in the codex. His fluff says he's only ever sent into the material universe to hunt down someone that has pissed off Khorne directly. He's not part of a Charnel Host, and really, only answers to Khorne. Not exactly the type of daemon to jump up and run off whenever he sense some violence going down.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
There's no changed fluff. Khorne Demonkin has nothing to do with the World Eaters or any of the Traitor Legions. If you want a fluff reason why Kharn is not included, that is it.

Khorne Demonkin warbands are basically cult worshippers of Khorne, who go around spilling blood in Khorne's name in order to summon Demons into realspace. These Demons then join up with the warband and continue on spilling blood and taking skulls long after all the mortal warriors are dead (the worship of Khorne is so strong that the summoned demons don't actually time-out back into the warp).

Skarbrand is not included because he is a traitor to Khorne. Karanak is the oddest exclusion, since Khorne sending his favoured pet hound to run around with a Demonkin Warband would seem to me to fit the Demonkin fluff pretty well.

I disagree on Karanak, he's probably the easiest one to explain not being in the codex. His fluff says he's only ever sent into the material universe to hunt down someone that has pissed off Khorne directly. He's not part of a Charnel Host, and really, only answers to Khorne. Not exactly the type of daemon to jump up and run off whenever he sense some violence going down.

It would be pretty simple to include him, though: a Khorne Daemonkin warband is utilized to kill enough things to summon Karanak so he can hunt down his prey. It doesn't need to apply to every instance of Karanak being used ever, just "once" for the use of him in an army on the tabletop.

Got my Gaming shirt yesterday in the mail.


Also finnaly got my LE book!!!

sadly its only the copy number 220, woumd have hopped for 888, oh well.

The Case wich contains the book is nice, with a nice feeling to the touch and nicely done artworks, front is the codex artwork, back its the Terminator Lord artwork you can find in the codex.


You have the Book in it self, with an Herald on jugger on the cover, and the thing with Kharn on it is the case that contains the goodies just like you can see on GW site.



The Cards with the specific KDK objectives, i was a bit dissapointed that there was no Blood Tithe cards like there is Psy Powers cards, but hey.



The Skulls and Coins are made in a good quelity pewter with a used and aged brass look.
They have quite a good feel in the hand, they have some weight, wich make it really enjoyable and they have a nice tint when they roll on the table.


Would have personnaly liked to have some proper box or container for the coins and skulls, like an miniature altar in wich you could fit all the skulls and coins, also the box for the cards is made of some thick carton, wich is nice, but i don't think it would withstand pronlonged use.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

-WHy completly ripping off the Chaos Boons table, i mean characters are still forced into challenge but they arn't any better then anyone else, and they don't get anything out of it, could have done a "simplified" Boons table with like 16 results that fitted khorne and be done with it; +1A/WS/I/T/W, Shred, ID in melee, EW, Hatred, Psy-eater, Adamentium will, SPawn and DP.
.

You get a Blood Tithe point when you slay a character or are slain in a challenge.. You absolutely get something out of a challenge. When your cultists run up and the champ challenges and loses and the whole unit ends up dieing--- you get 2 Blood Tithe Points- one for dying in the challenge and one for the unit dying. Khorne cares only that blood flows, he cares not where it comes from.