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Let's say my warlord has this axe that turns him into a blood thirster when he is removed as a casualty (i.e. Caged Fury).

If I use my blood tithe to turn him into a blood thirster and then remove him as a casualty.... would this generate a second blood thirster? The Fury Unbound rule states that he is removed as a casualty. Just checking.

As written, yes. Amusingly.

edit: Actually, it depends on the wording - and not just the "as a casualty" part. The entire wording of the Caged Fury rule. I don't have that book with me though.

I now have visions of bloodthirsters nestled inside of each other like nesting dolls.

 Green is Best! wrote:
Let's say my warlord has this axe that turns him into a blood thirster when he is removed as a casualty (i.e. Caged Fury).

If I use my blood tithe to turn him into a blood thirster and then remove him as a casualty.... would this generate a second blood thirster? The Fury Unbound rule states that he is removed as a casualty. Just checking.

My reading of it says yes... I am embarrassingly bad at this sort of thing though which is why I rely on the interpretation of others, particularly my TO.

Caged Fury: If the bearer of the Axe of Ruin is reduced to 0 wounds or is otherwise removed as a casaualty, a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury is summoned within 6"...... (Note, this is the one that starts taking d3 wounds per turn) so its going to die eventually

From the Blood Tithe table:
Fury Unbound:.... if the test is failed, that model is immediately removed as a casualty. If the test is passed, a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury is summoned ... and then the chosed character is removed as a casualty

Sounds like it would be yes as RAW

Another option is to use Apotheosis to create a Daemon Prince. As the bearer is killed, spawn a Bloodthirster that melts. However, the Daemon Prince retains all his Artefacts and so if the Prince should cop it, the Axe of Ruin triggers a second time and you get 2 melty Bloodthirsters!
This also neatly dodges a lot of arguing about Swooping FMC's because the Prince doesn't need Wings.

Oh thats hilarious

That is. . Hilarious

Mozzamanx wrote:
Another option is to use Apotheosis to create a Daemon Prince. As the bearer is killed, spawn a Bloodthirster that melts. However, the Daemon Prince retains all his Artefacts and so if the Prince should cop it, the Axe of Ruin triggers a second time and you get 2 melty Bloodthirsters!
This also neatly dodges a lot of arguing about Swooping FMC's because the Prince doesn't need Wings.

Why would the Daemon Prince retain any previous Wargear? Isn't he being replaced with a new model?

Its specifically allowed, without the normal restrictions so he can get artefacts princes normally can't.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Its specifically allowed, without the normal restrictions so he can get artefacts princes normally can't.

Apotheosis specifically states that a newly created Daemon Prince retains all Wargear from the previous model? I don't have my rulebook on me, but I don't recall wording like that. Can you post the rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought we're told to treat the Dark Apotheosis as the Spawnhood one and that the Spawnhood one tells us the Spawn retains none of the model's special rules or wargear.

 Kriswall wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Its specifically allowed, without the normal restrictions so he can get artefacts princes normally can't.

Apotheosis specifically states that a newly created Daemon Prince retains all Wargear from the previous model? I don't have my rulebook on me, but I don't recall wording like that. Can you post the rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought we're told to treat the Dark Apotheosis as the Spawnhood one and that the Spawnhood one tells us the Spawn retains none of the model's special rules or wargear.

You're thinking of the CSM rule. The rule for Khorne Daemonkin works differently.

 Kriswall wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Its specifically allowed, without the normal restrictions so he can get artefacts princes normally can't.

Apotheosis specifically states that a newly created Daemon Prince retains all Wargear from the previous model? I don't have my rulebook on me, but I don't recall wording like that. Can you post the rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought we're told to treat the Dark Apotheosis as the Spawnhood one and that the Spawnhood one tells us the Spawn retains none of the model's special rules or wargear.

"Furthermore, the Daemon Prince will retain any Warlord Trait and Artefacts of Slaughter your Warlord had (ignoring the usual restrictions on these items)."

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Its specifically allowed, without the normal restrictions so he can get artefacts princes normally can't.

Apotheosis specifically states that a newly created Daemon Prince retains all Wargear from the previous model? I don't have my rulebook on me, but I don't recall wording like that. Can you post the rule?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thought we're told to treat the Dark Apotheosis as the Spawnhood one and that the Spawnhood one tells us the Spawn retains none of the model's special rules or wargear.

"Furthermore, the Daemon Prince will retain any Warlord Trait and Artefacts of Slaughter your Warlord had (ignoring the usual restrictions on these items)."

Thanks for posting the rule. That's what I was looking for. Interesting that it works completely differently. In that case, yes, this is definitely open for shenanigans.

As a side note, I find it kind of derpy that a Daemon Prince can use the Axe of Ruin to begin with. A daemon can be possessed by another daemon??? Yet, when summoning a BT via the Blood Tithe, only non-daemon units can be used.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
As a side note, I find it kind of derpy that a Daemon Prince can use the Axe of Ruin to begin with. A daemon can be possessed by another daemon??? Yet, when summoning a BT via the Blood Tithe, only non-daemon units can be used.

Technically the DP is a daemon that used to be mortal, wereas the BT is a Daemon. DP's are not thought that highly of by true daemons, so I can see them abusing the form of the DP to burst out of.

Yes you get a BT when the bearer is removed as a casualty. As noted doing this with a BT summon is sub optimal turn the bearer into a DP and the axe can give you 2 BTs. This is one of the better things in the book. My advice is summon a DP without wings he can get into CC a turn earlier forcing your opponent to shoot him which gives you that second thirster which can assault the same time as the first (it Deepstrikes in your opponent's turn) and forces your opponent to waste firepower killing a free Daemon Prince

So, you can sacrafice a lord with an Axe to create a Daemon prince that still maintains the Axe AND get a melting thirster cause the lord has been removed as casualty. Furthermore, when a Prince gets killed, you can get another melting thirster.

So, a prince and 2 thirsters in one lil lord.

If you add in the possibility to land the turn you summon them (another rule arguement), might be a broken good 'matryoshka' Lord combo.

 koooaei wrote:
So, you can sacrafice a lord with an Axe to create a Daemon prince that still maintains the Axe AND get a melting thirster cause the lord has been removed as casualty. Furthermore, when a Prince gets killed, you can get another melting thirster.

So, a prince and 2 thirsters nesting in one lil lord.

This use of Apotheosis to gain two Bloodthirsters from the Axe seems like far more of a problem (as incredibly unlikely as it may be) than the one originally proposed.

The original scenario (Caged Fury on a model with the Axe of Ruin resulting in two Bloodthirsters) doesn't even break the fluff, let alone the rules. The Axe-Bloodthirster is imprisoned inside the axe, not the model holding it. The guy holding the Axe gets elevated to Bloodthirster status, drops the Axe, and the Bloodthirster inside breaks free. There's genuinely no problem--fluff or rules--with that sequence of events.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I now have visions of bloodthirsters nestled inside of each other like nesting dolls.

Yo dawg, I heard you like daemons, so we put a daemon in your daemon so you can summon while you summon....

 koooaei wrote:
So, you can sacrafice a lord with an Axe to create a Daemon prince that still maintains the Axe AND get a melting thirster cause the lord has been removed as casualty. Furthermore, when a Prince gets killed, you can get another melting thirster.

So, a prince and 2 thirsters in one lil lord.

If you add in the possibility to land the turn you summon them (another rule arguement), might be a broken good 'matryoshka' Lord combo.

Well the Thirsters are in the axe not the Lord. There is no argument that you can land the turn you arrive, only wishful thinking. There are literally no new rules for Deepstriking in the Codex and you even arrive the same time as usual (start of the turn). Don't confuse what people want to be true with what is actually true.

So , you kill your Lord for dark apotheosis. You gain a blood point for a unit with BFTBG being destroyed?

Then another one because a character with BFTBG being slain.

Then generate a daemon Prince . Then a bloodthirster. Both of which are worth two blood points dead. The bloodthirster does have a decent chance of grounding itself on the turn its generated too (which has pros and cons)

 kingbobbito wrote:

Yo dawg, I heard you like daemons, so we put a daemon in your daemon so you can summon while you summon....