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We now know from the leaked force org chart that it requires two troop choices, I.e. One troop box to run a detachment of Skiitari, and the box comes packaged with their rules and wargear options.

And they just so happen to be battle buddies for IoM armies, and oh they also happen to be the best thing since sliced bread to throw in a drop pod when it comes to point efficiency (sure I'll take a 70ish point squad that'll pop out of a pod and fire four haywire shots at BS7).

And then, when someone wants to expand their army, pretty much everything is good...provided you buy lots and lots of kits. Want robo ostrich lancers? Might as well have three of those suckers. Want creepy crawly tanks? Each one you buy increases their invulnerable saves by 1....you sure you don't want three? Sicarians? Well if you had one of each unit they'd work that much better...

Is it me or is this an unexpected level of brilliance? Four kits, and it feels like they have more viable options than some full armies. They've got their unique style so they're not Space Marines -1 or Guard with Red Paint. They're an attempt to make the two currently weakest unit types (footslogging infantry and walkers) and it looks like it'll work just dandy.

So what's happened? Coming on the heels of the "hey let's release these cool models but make them stupidly awkward and restrictive" harlequins and the "lol what is balance" Necrons this is kind of unexpected. Were the Skiitari an accident, is the broken clock just hitting its twice a day? Or, even more terrifying, is GW actually...learning?

GW is not a singular entity. From most of the new codices I get the vibe there are some better designers currently in the team than in the nearby past. The new codices are fairly balanced against eachother mono ( mostly it's IoM and allies causing the most broken stuff. ) I kinda hope allies and IoM were just removed, but that would put so much more weight on codices being balanced that it would never work. Only the Necrons got a fatal mistake out of the new books. Eldar and Tau are still in the old spectrum, and I'm fairly sure will be brought down in power with the new codices coming this year ( unless there is yet another mistake like the Wraiths. ) Ofcourse, there will be at some point. It's nothing new and this has been the case for 20 years, I'm more amazed at people being amazed at GW's mistakes than the mistakes themselves.

I do like footslogging infantry and walkers in general getting a nudge upwards.

I certainly think they are the best release in a looong time. Harlies were a cool adittion, and the model range is fantastic, but the requirements for their detachment seem like a misstep, and play-wise they are just like more elite DE/Aspect Warriors.

AdMech have a similarly awesome selection of minis, but v are far more accessible, needing only 1 box to bring them into your army, and also having a very unique play style; not as tough or elite as Marines, not as squishy or expendable as Guard, but nicely filling the middle ground between the two, and having plenty of cool toys and tricks to boot! If anything, they're like an IoM 5th-Cron/6th-Tau mashup, shooty and middlingly tough, and with lots of buffs/debuffs to throw around.

 Paradigm wrote:
I certainly think they are the best release in a looong time. Harlies were a cool adittion, and the model range is fantastic, but the requirements for their detachment seem like a misstep, and play-wise they are just like more elite DE/Aspect Warriors.

AdMech have a similarly awesome selection of minis, but v are far more accessible, needing only 1 box to bring them into your army, and also having a very unique play style; not as tough or elite as Marines, not as squishy or expendable as Guard, but nicely filling the middle ground between the two, and having plenty of cool toys and tricks to boot! If anything, they're like an IoM 5th-Cron/6th-Tau mashup, shooty and middlingly tough, and with lots of buffs/debuffs to throw around.

One thing worries me a little bit. They're both more durable than guardsman and have better shooting.
Will infantry guardsman armies become unattractive to play when there's an army that has the same playstyle but is just... better?

DaPino wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I certainly think they are the best release in a looong time. Harlies were a cool adittion, and the model range is fantastic, but the requirements for their detachment seem like a misstep, and play-wise they are just like more elite DE/Aspect Warriors.

AdMech have a similarly awesome selection of minis, but v are far more accessible, needing only 1 box to bring them into your army, and also having a very unique play style; not as tough or elite as Marines, not as squishy or expendable as Guard, but nicely filling the middle ground between the two, and having plenty of cool toys and tricks to boot! If anything, they're like an IoM 5th-Cron/6th-Tau mashup, shooty and middlingly tough, and with lots of buffs/debuffs to throw around.

One thing worries me a little bit. They're both more durable than guardsman and have better shooting.
Will infantry guardsman armies become unattractive to play when there's an army that has the same playstyle but is just... better?

People who like Guard and want to play Guard will play Guard, there are currently a lot of armies that do their shtick only better. I'm really digging the Admech stuff almost makes me wish I'd started Space Marines. GW does have good writers/designers they're just famous for the Wardians.

It will be interesting to see the full release, it doesn't look like they'll have a huge unit selection however.

I haven't been particularly impressed with the more recent releases though. The heavy reliance on formations that often grant absurdly powerful abilities coupled with some serious unit balance issues are major problems, particularly after the major toning down the late 6E/early 7E books got, which were largely relatively balanced against each other pretty well.

Raven Cowl wrote:

DaPino wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I certainly think they are the best release in a looong time. Harlies were a cool adittion, and the model range is fantastic, but the requirements for their detachment seem like a misstep, and play-wise they are just like more elite DE/Aspect Warriors.

AdMech have a similarly awesome selection of minis, but v are far more accessible, needing only 1 box to bring them into your army, and also having a very unique play style; not as tough or elite as Marines, not as squishy or expendable as Guard, but nicely filling the middle ground between the two, and having plenty of cool toys and tricks to boot! If anything, they're like an IoM 5th-Cron/6th-Tau mashup, shooty and middlingly tough, and with lots of buffs/debuffs to throw around.

One thing worries me a little bit. They're both more durable than guardsman and have better shooting.
Will infantry guardsman armies become unattractive to play when there's an army that has the same playstyle but is just... better?

People who like Guard and want to play Guard will play Guard, there are currently a lot of armies that do their shtick only better. I'm really digging the Admech stuff almost makes me wish I'd started Space Marines. GW does have good writers/designers they're just famous for the Wardians.

Yeah, guard on foot aren't exactly a winning, nor even viable strategy these days. As someone who keeps soldiering on (as that's what the Guard does, we die standing), My reaction to Skitarii was "Oh look, something else better than Guard on foot. Footguard being unattractive doesn't really surprise, alarm or even concern most Guard players these days, we're just sort of used to it. Unless we're spamming Russes, we're doing it wrong according to GW, so the Skitarii, while interesting don't mean anything to my perception of Guard.

This is just my opinion - but this latest release is the epitome of gak. I'm sure I'll start running into these terrible looking models in the weeks to come - the new SM and eldar releases can't come any sooner!

 MajorStoffer wrote:

Raven Cowl wrote:

DaPino wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I certainly think they are the best release in a looong time. Harlies were a cool adittion, and the model range is fantastic, but the requirements for their detachment seem like a misstep, and play-wise they are just like more elite DE/Aspect Warriors.

AdMech have a similarly awesome selection of minis, but v are far more accessible, needing only 1 box to bring them into your army, and also having a very unique play style; not as tough or elite as Marines, not as squishy or expendable as Guard, but nicely filling the middle ground between the two, and having plenty of cool toys and tricks to boot! If anything, they're like an IoM 5th-Cron/6th-Tau mashup, shooty and middlingly tough, and with lots of buffs/debuffs to throw around.

One thing worries me a little bit. They're both more durable than guardsman and have better shooting.
Will infantry guardsman armies become unattractive to play when there's an army that has the same playstyle but is just... better?

People who like Guard and want to play Guard will play Guard, there are currently a lot of armies that do their shtick only better. I'm really digging the Admech stuff almost makes me wish I'd started Space Marines. GW does have good writers/designers they're just famous for the Wardians.

Yeah, guard on foot aren't exactly a winning, nor even viable strategy these days. As someone who keeps soldiering on (as that's what the Guard does, we die standing), My reaction to Skitarii was "Oh look, something else better than Guard on foot. Footguard being unattractive doesn't really surprise, alarm or even concern most Guard players these days, we're just sort of used to it. Unless we're spamming Russes, we're doing it wrong according to GW, so the Skitarii, while interesting don't mean anything to my perception of Guard.

What irks me is that the Skitarii are exactly what Stormtroopers/Scions should have *always* been, and have weapons almost identical to what I've been arguing Stormtroopers *should* have been armed with since 4th edition.

DaPino wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I certainly think they are the best release in a looong time. Harlies were a cool adittion, and the model range is fantastic, but the requirements for their detachment seem like a misstep, and play-wise they are just like more elite DE/Aspect Warriors.

AdMech have a similarly awesome selection of minis, but v are far more accessible, needing only 1 box to bring them into your army, and also having a very unique play style; not as tough or elite as Marines, not as squishy or expendable as Guard, but nicely filling the middle ground between the two, and having plenty of cool toys and tricks to boot! If anything, they're like an IoM 5th-Cron/6th-Tau mashup, shooty and middlingly tough, and with lots of buffs/debuffs to throw around.

One thing worries me a little bit. They're both more durable than guardsman and have better shooting.
Will infantry guardsman armies become unattractive to play when there's an army that has the same playstyle but is just... better?

better guns and more durable, but a lot more expensive

A guardsman is 4ppm, and can come in squads of 50.
A veteran is what 6ppm?

Vanguard are 9ppm
Rangers are 11ppm

When something costs half as much, but has a slightly worse save it is actually the thing that is MORE durable.

Compare either however to something like Carapace Vets or Scions and the IG units are significantly worse unfortunately. The vastly superior basic guns of the Skitarii coupled with BS4 also make a pretty huge difference, not to mention their directive rules which appear to be able to massively boost a relevant stat.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Compare either however to something like Carapace Vets or Scions and the IG units are significantly worse unfortunately. The vastly superior basic guns of the Skitarii coupled with BS4 also make a pretty huge difference, not to mention their directive rules which appear to be able to massively boost a relevant stat.

well they are more deadly with those nice weapons. But they might be less durable. They also dont have HQs handing out orders, which really make IG shine(and no that isnt reflected in the cost of the HQ alone. A command squad is worth WAY more than 50 points if so)

 Vaktathi wrote:
Compare either however to something like Carapace Vets or Scions and the IG units are significantly worse unfortunately. The vastly superior basic guns of the Skitarii coupled with BS4 also make a pretty huge difference, not to mention their directive rules which appear to be able to massively boost a relevant stat.

Yes, my thoughts exactly!

While guard seem to have the numerical advantage and point cost, their buffs are nowhere near as impressive when played as a blob as a Skitarii force. Having a buff on you entire army on the first turn, allowing you to shoot everything to hell is a damn impressive feat.

As far as whether this release is a big improvement I say absolutely yes. Sometime we talk about GW as if they were the most incompetent business in the world, and yet month after month we see them produce, market and distribute some of the best models in the world. It would be juvenile to maintain the attitude that a multimillion dollar international company can't learn form its mistakes and employ tactics to meet consumer needs. Let's hope that this is a sign of things to come!

as for how they stack up vs guard, I don't see this obseleting guard. people might chosoe them if they're looking to do a guard foot slogging choice (they're actually some of the best footsloggers in the game. which is far as they lack DTs) but guard allow for a better combined arms force. taking infantry in chimeras, and escorting them with tanks etc.

Because of OP,s post...
Do i field skitarii or use them as SM scouts? (As they do look amazing)

I'd use skitarii as is. those arc rifles are all kinds of amazing!

DaPino wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
I certainly think they are the best release in a looong time. Harlies were a cool adittion, and the model range is fantastic, but the requirements for their detachment seem like a misstep, and play-wise they are just like more elite DE/Aspect Warriors.

AdMech have a similarly awesome selection of minis, but v are far more accessible, needing only 1 box to bring them into your army, and also having a very unique play style; not as tough or elite as Marines, not as squishy or expendable as Guard, but nicely filling the middle ground between the two, and having plenty of cool toys and tricks to boot! If anything, they're like an IoM 5th-Cron/6th-Tau mashup, shooty and middlingly tough, and with lots of buffs/debuffs to throw around.

One thing worries me a little bit. They're both more durable than guardsman and have better shooting.
Will infantry guardsman armies become unattractive to play when there's an army that has the same playstyle but is just... better?

Haven't seen any 50-man fearless skiitari units yet.

Skiitari do it better, guard do it cheaper and with orders, more adaptably.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Compare either however to something like Carapace Vets or Scions and the IG units are significantly worse unfortunately. The vastly superior basic guns of the Skitarii coupled with BS4 also make a pretty huge difference, not to mention their directive rules which appear to be able to massively boost a relevant stat.

Except carapace vets are A) cheaper and B) do have bs4.

A vet is 6 ppm. If I was gonna have vets on foot they'd be Stealth Vets not carapace, honestly I don't usually use carapace at all. Stealth vets get 3+ saves behind aegis and in ruins, that's good enough for me. So, 7 ppm as opposed to 9 with skiitari.

That 2 PPM buys slightly better guns and relentless. Are they better footsloggers? Yes. Are they better overall? I dunno I would say the vets are designed for the chimera which is a great transport that the Vanguards don't get.

If you're running Foot Guard, odds are you're using platoon blobs not vets.