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If the Emperor had chosen Manus as Warmaster(as Horus admitted openly that Ferrus was the only one of his brothers to match his understanding of operating a war front) and Chaos had latched on to him rather than Horus, would much of the Heresy have changed?

After reading Outcast Dead where the Emperor seems to imply he sacrificed Ferrus Manus intentionally, I had to reason out why he would do that and simply decided that with Manus and Horus matched across the Imperium, it would end with both forces annihilating one another and leaving the Imperium open for xenos assault.

Assuming that's remotely right, would the Emperor have sacrificed Horus against Manus and 'his' version of the Dropsite Massacre?

What else might have gone differently?

Why do YOU think the Emperor may have sacrificed three legions?


4/6/15 Edit: I am not welcoming discussion concerning the feasibility of this premise.

If Ferrus had led the Heresy, there might have been a different set of primarchs in the Heresy.

Either way, it would ended when Konrad Curze/Horus/Sanguinius/Fulgrim/Liono/Angron killed him in fair combat.

I'm pretty sure any of the above, and likely others, could have bested him. Easily.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
If Ferrus had led the Heresy, there might have been a different set of primarchs in the Heresy.

Either way, it would ended when Konrad Curze/Horus/Sanguinius/Fulgrim/Liono/Angron killed him in fair combat.

I'm pretty sure any of the above, and likely others, could have bested him. Easily.

Since that second part is just a derail, I'll just not entertain it.

Which Primarchs do you think may have been swayed?

 Shidank wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
If Ferrus had led the Heresy, there might have been a different set of primarchs in the Heresy.

Either way, it would ended when Konrad Curze/Horus/Sanguinius/Fulgrim/Liono/Angron killed him in fair combat.

I'm pretty sure any of the above, and likely others, could have bested him. Easily.

Since that second part is just a derail, I'll just not entertain it.

Which Primarchs do you think may have been swayed?

Still doesn't mean Norton is wrong, Any of those Primarchs would facestomp him in CQC.

Since it's not one of the questions/topics of discussion posed, I'll ask again that you focus and not try to derail further. If you'd like, we can discuss how that may be relevant to the overall Heresy. After all, Horus battled and defeated several Primarchs before ascending to Emperor status and killing Sanguiniu-Ohhhhh, that's right.

He didn't. He just rolled that sweet Heresy out.

I think this would have been the logical, methodical Manus we didn't get to see in the Heresy but which was spoken of in the other books. The literal war machine of the Iron Tenth.

I'll bite. He takes Fulgrim with him. maybe Vulkan too. Perhaps perturbo and deffo the dark mechanicus join in. Perhaps even the Ultramarines. Although they would make a good betrayed brother arc too. I see Horus leading the defense along side Dorn. perhaps Sanguinus falls at Signus Prime?

As for why he sacrificed the legions. Perhaps he foresaw it was the only way to win. Or perhaps the loss of those legions is the deciding factor in the loyalties of others, eg Scars, Dark Angels etc.

What at all makes you think Mannus would ever side with Fulgrim? The Iron Hands abhorred Fulgrim's obsession with the flesh.

Fulgrim and Manus were best buds. Possibly the closest of any of the Primarchs. Also not sure why any of those Primarchs would 'easily' beat Ferrus but that's not really the point.

To be honest I don't think much would have changed. I think the legions that turned traitor would probably be the same (as the legions who turned, were already pretty broken or whatever anyway, and the ones who stayed loyal were just of a loyal disposition and I don't think that would change).

I also see no reason why the Emperor would have sacrificed Manus deliberately... The only thing I can think is he was just buying time but that just sounds like more of Mcneils bad writing (having not read Outcast Dead).

I really don't see ferrus turning to chaos very easily. He outright refused and did no even entertain the thought of going traitor when fulgrim asked him, who was he closest and most beloved brother. Ferrus was also quite pragmatic, and saw himself as what the emperor probably saw his sons as, a weapon to be used to fulfill a goal, an he was fine playing that part, and most of all due to it he was not afraid of dying.

If he did turn traitor by some miracle, he probably would have ended up with fulgrim, perturabo, mayb vulkan, mayb guilliuman and who knows what any of the more unstable primarchs would have done. Generally though, ferrus would probably be a rather poor war master, he doesn't seem like a charismatic enough person to truly be warmaster and I doubt he would want that role.

Also at all the people talking **** on ferrus being a bad fighter, remember that he was beating fulgrim in their duel on isstvan until fulgrim drew the daemon blade. He never could have truly won that fight no matter what though, because as angry as he was, he loved fulgrim more than even a brother, and he could never truly bring himself to kill his closest and most beloved friend. Now I'm getting all teary eyed lol.

I don't think Vulkan would ever fall. He is the most pure and compassionate of all the primarchs imo.
As to whether the other primarchs would best Ferrus in combat - that is irrelevant, I'm pretty sure most of the men in the British/Prussian/Russian/Austrian/Spanish Armies in the early 1800's could have bested Napoleon in one on one combat. But apart from the (unsuccessful) crossing of one bridge he didn't get his hands dirty at the front - that didn't stop him from conquering the majority of Europe though. Generalship has little to do with close quarter combat... unless you come from Greek Legend.
Anyway back to the Primarchs:
Fulgrim is a definite. As is Lorgar (He's the one who would start the wheels turning after all). I can't imagine Angron staying loyal to the Emperor, and Pertuarbo would side against Dorn. The Night Haunter turned because of his visions so that wouldn't have changed. Magnus would still have used his powers to try to save Ferrus from chaos and in failing to do so then warn the emperor (he was after all being manipulated by the great schemer), so that would have played out the same.
To this day I'm still confused as to why Mortarion turned traitor - it's never really been explained so I don't know there. Whilst Alpharius/Omegon may not have heeded the warnings of the Cabal if their mentor Horus had not been the arch-traitor.
So who would take the place of these two?
The Khan was on the fence until the 11th hour so I'd like to think he would be one. I'd think the last 2 would be between either of the legions of the angels, does Sanguinius fall at Signus Prime or does the Lion prove half the fan base correct in becoming a traitor himself?
I don't think Corax would have turned but it would leave an interesting dilema in the loyalist force due to the extreme dislike Corax and Horus held for each other.

Mortar ion sold his soul to Nurgle after becoming trapped in the warp by Typhus

Yeh but he had already turned traitor and participated in both isstvans before that

Well then he's just a douche. The Emperor did kill his dad if that counts

Poly Ranger wrote:
I don't think Vulkan would ever fall. He is the most pure and compassionate of all the primarchs imo.
As to whether the other primarchs would best Ferrus in combat - that is irrelevant, I'm pretty sure most of the men in the British/Prussian/Russian/Austrian/Spanish Armies in the early 1800's could have bested Napoleon in one on one combat.

40k isn't Napoleonic Wars. In 40k, armies are routinely defeated when someone kills the leader in a daring strike.

What happened to the Horus Heresy when Horus died? They turned tails and ran, except the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

The Manus Heresy would end the same way, but much sooner, because Manus was a poor fighter.

Depending on how the Manus Heresy ended, it is possible that a slower, more thorough approach would have resulted in a Heresy that occurred after the Night Lords had returned to Terra. A recent heart-to-heart with Dad might have resulted in the Night Haunted remaining loyal.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I don't think Vulkan would ever fall. He is the most pure and compassionate of all the primarchs imo.
As to whether the other primarchs would best Ferrus in combat - that is irrelevant, I'm pretty sure most of the men in the British/Prussian/Russian/Austrian/Spanish Armies in the early 1800's could have bested Napoleon in one on one combat.

40k isn't Napoleonic Wars. In 40k, armies are routinely defeated when someone kills the leader in a daring strike.

What happened to the Horus Heresy when Horus died? They turned tails and ran, except the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

The Manus Heresy would end the same way, but much sooner, because Manus was a poor fighter.

Depending on how the Manus Heresy ended, it is possible that a slower, more thorough approach would have resulted in a Heresy that occurred after the Night Lords had returned to Terra. A recent heart-to-heart with Dad might have resulted in the Night Haunted remaining loyal.

Although Manus would have the chaos gods behind him so he may have been harder to kill because of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Great White wrote:
Mortar ion sold his soul to Nurgle after becoming trapped in the warp by Typhus

He turned from the Emperor because he hated tyrants and saw his father as just another tyrant, only to end up siding with Horus who became even worse, and also he hated Psykers, which is why he was so vehement in trying to stop the Librarius, only for sorcerers to become even more common in the traitor legions. All pretty ironic.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I don't think Vulkan would ever fall. He is the most pure and compassionate of all the primarchs imo.
As to whether the other primarchs would best Ferrus in combat - that is irrelevant, I'm pretty sure most of the men in the British/Prussian/Russian/Austrian/Spanish Armies in the early 1800's could have bested Napoleon in one on one combat.

40k isn't Napoleonic Wars. In 40k, armies are routinely defeated when someone kills the leader in a daring strike.

What happened to the Horus Heresy when Horus died? They turned tails and ran, except the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

The Manus Heresy would end the same way, but much sooner, because Manus was a poor fighter.

Depending on how the Manus Heresy ended, it is possible that a slower, more thorough approach would have resulted in a Heresy that occurred after the Night Lords had returned to Terra. A recent heart-to-heart with Dad might have resulted in the Night Haunted remaining loyal.

Although Manus would have the chaos gods behind him so he may have been harder to kill because of that.

Jog my memory... how well did that work out for Horus?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I don't think Vulkan would ever fall. He is the most pure and compassionate of all the primarchs imo.
As to whether the other primarchs would best Ferrus in combat - that is irrelevant, I'm pretty sure most of the men in the British/Prussian/Russian/Austrian/Spanish Armies in the early 1800's could have bested Napoleon in one on one combat.

40k isn't Napoleonic Wars. In 40k, armies are routinely defeated when someone kills the leader in a daring strike.

What happened to the Horus Heresy when Horus died? They turned tails and ran, except the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

The Manus Heresy would end the same way, but much sooner, because Manus was a poor fighter.

Depending on how the Manus Heresy ended, it is possible that a slower, more thorough approach would have resulted in a Heresy that occurred after the Night Lords had returned to Terra. A recent heart-to-heart with Dad might have resulted in the Night Haunted remaining loyal.

Although Manus would have the chaos gods behind him so he may have been harder to kill because of that.

Jog my memory... how well did that work out for Horus?

Well considering it took the Emperor to kill him and he almost died himself in the process, pretty well until that point? That's my point, he possibly still would've got to Terra and still needed the emperor to kill him if he had chaos powers.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I don't think Vulkan would ever fall. He is the most pure and compassionate of all the primarchs imo.
As to whether the other primarchs would best Ferrus in combat - that is irrelevant, I'm pretty sure most of the men in the British/Prussian/Russian/Austrian/Spanish Armies in the early 1800's could have bested Napoleon in one on one combat.

40k isn't Napoleonic Wars. In 40k, armies are routinely defeated when someone kills the leader in a daring strike.

What happened to the Horus Heresy when Horus died? They turned tails and ran, except the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

The Manus Heresy would end the same way, but much sooner, because Manus was a poor fighter.

Depending on how the Manus Heresy ended, it is possible that a slower, more thorough approach would have resulted in a Heresy that occurred after the Night Lords had returned to Terra. A recent heart-to-heart with Dad might have resulted in the Night Haunted remaining loyal.

Although Manus would have the chaos gods behind him so he may have been harder to kill because of that.

Jog my memory... how well did that work out for Horus?

Well considering it took the Emperor to kill him and he almost died himself in the process, pretty well until that point? That's my point, he possibly still would've got to Terra and still needed the emperor to kill him if he had chaos powers.

The Emperor almost died because he couldn't bring himself to kill Horus immediately. He didn't have as close a bond with Manus, so he might have just outright destroyed him

Ferrus Manus had the charisma of an oyster. He knew it himself and recognised this as his greatest mistake. He would have trouble turning his own Legion to Chaos let alone other Primarchs. Ferrus Manus would have been the worst choice after Kurze. After all, he was troubled by his Legion attitude toward bionic and flesh, but didn't knew how to adress it under the current circomstances.

Out of curiosity, where did you read that? I've heard the Lion and Sanguinius mentioned, but never Ferrus.

Shidank wrote:Why do YOU think the Emperor may have sacrificed three legions?

He didn't. He sent 7 Legions against them; Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and small contingent of Word Bearers. 4 of which had unknowingly turned already.

Shidank wrote:Which Primarchs do you think may have been swayed?

None. He was never even considered to become the Warmaster. He didn't have the temper and social skills.

 Great White wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
I don't think Vulkan would ever fall. He is the most pure and compassionate of all the primarchs imo.
As to whether the other primarchs would best Ferrus in combat - that is irrelevant, I'm pretty sure most of the men in the British/Prussian/Russian/Austrian/Spanish Armies in the early 1800's could have bested Napoleon in one on one combat.

40k isn't Napoleonic Wars. In 40k, armies are routinely defeated when someone kills the leader in a daring strike.

What happened to the Horus Heresy when Horus died? They turned tails and ran, except the Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

The Manus Heresy would end the same way, but much sooner, because Manus was a poor fighter.

Depending on how the Manus Heresy ended, it is possible that a slower, more thorough approach would have resulted in a Heresy that occurred after the Night Lords had returned to Terra. A recent heart-to-heart with Dad might have resulted in the Night Haunted remaining loyal.

Although Manus would have the chaos gods behind him so he may have been harder to kill because of that.

Jog my memory... how well did that work out for Horus?

Well considering it took the Emperor to kill him and he almost died himself in the process, pretty well until that point? That's my point, he possibly still would've got to Terra and still needed the emperor to kill him if he had chaos powers.

The Emperor almost died because he couldn't bring himself to kill Horus immediately. He didn't have as close a bond with Manus, so he might have just outright destroyed him

It's not like if the Emperor had not cared about Horus he would've just straight up obliterated him, he still wouldve had a fight on his hands. He killed Saguinius pretty easily (incidentally one of the Primarchs people were saying would easily beat Ferrus, so if he had the same warp power as Horus, that fight might not have been as one sided as you made out...)

All I was saying is that if Ferrus had the power of the Chaos gods behind him he probably would've been harder to kill than normal. That's literally all I was saying.

Didn't Horus ever mention that Rowboat would've made a good Warmaster? If not him, I'm pretty sure Hours said someone deserved the honor more than he did.

2BlackJack1 wrote:
Didn't Horus ever mention that Rowboat would've made a good Warmaster? If not him, I'm pretty sure Hours said someone deserved the honor more than he did.

Sanguinius.

epronovost wrote:
Ferrus Manus had the charisma of an oyster. He knew it himself and recognised this as his greatest mistake. He would have trouble turning his own Legion to Chaos let alone other Primarchs. Ferrus Manus would have been the worst choice after Kurze. After all, he was troubled by his Legion attitude toward bionic and flesh, but didn't knew how to adress it under the current circomstances.

Kurze was a fantastic choice. He would have done the one thing none of the other Primarchs could have done.

He would have let the Emperor kill him... and the fallout would have been MUCH worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

2BlackJack1 wrote:
Didn't Horus ever mention that Rowboat would've made a good Warmaster? If not him, I'm pretty sure Hours said someone deserved the honor more than he did.

Girlyman was one of the worst combatants of the primarchs.

Him, Magnus, Manus, Dorn, and Lorgar, I think, make up the bottom rung.

Yeah, but he was a good strategist, which is where I was coming from, and my memory was just misleading me. I thought I read somewhere that Horus said Girlyman deserved the honor, but I was wrong, it was Sanguinis. Girlyman was good for rebuilding planet's he captured, but that's about it. It could be a last shred of hope that my memory doesn't completely suck, but didn't Horus at least look to Girlyman for advice?

2BlackJack1 wrote:
Yeah, but he was a good strategist, which is where I was coming from, and my memory was just misleading me. I thought I read somewhere that Horus said Girlyman deserved the honor, but I was wrong, it was Sanguinis. Girlyman was good for rebuilding planet's he captured, but that's about it. It could be a last shred of hope that my memory doesn't completely suck, but didn't Horus at least look to Girlyman for advice?

not sure it was ever said so but presumably, Gulliman was noted as being one of the most achomplished of the primarchs. I think noting he was good for little more then rebuilding planets. IIRC the Ultramarines where considered to be good eneugh that the Luna wolves saw them as a notable rival legion

 EmpNortonII wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Ferrus Manus had the charisma of an oyster. He knew it himself and recognised this as his greatest mistake. He would have trouble turning his own Legion to Chaos let alone other Primarchs. Ferrus Manus would have been the worst choice after Kurze. After all, he was troubled by his Legion attitude toward bionic and flesh, but didn't knew how to adress it under the current circomstances.

Kurze was a fantastic choice. He would have done the one thing none of the other Primarchs could have done.

He would have let the Emperor kill him... and the fallout would have been MUCH worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

2BlackJack1 wrote:
Didn't Horus ever mention that Rowboat would've made a good Warmaster? If not him, I'm pretty sure Hours said someone deserved the honor more than he did.

Girlyman was one of the worst combatants of the primarchs.

Him, Magnus, Manus, Dorn, and Lorgar, I think, make up the bottom rung.

Why was he one of the worst? Magnus, Manus, Dorn and Guilliman were perfectly good combatants. Lorgar before he turned I could see as not being very good but after he got powered up by Chaos he was also perfectly capable. Guilliman managed to fight Angron and chaos powered Lorgar and not die. He survived being ejected into space. He survived an assassination attempt by 10 AL assassins. I don't see anything to suggest he was one of the worst combatants.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Kurze was a fantastic choice. He would have done the one thing none of the other Primarchs could have done.

He would have let the Emperor kill him... and the fallout would have been MUCH worse.

I doubt anyone would care if that madman passed away; not even the other fallen Primarchs liked Curze.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Girlyman was one of the worst combatants of the primarchs.

Him, Magnus, Manus, Dorn, and Lorgar, I think, make up the bottom rung.

I’m surprised you rank Roboute so low. I personally, would have ranked him much higher, especially after he fought and held his ground against Angron for a respectful amount of time, and his complete neutering of Curze.

Norton seems to just like derailing, but that's alright. He actually raises some good points in the Primarchs chosen.



-Magnus was the most powerful primarch, yet he calls him the worst combatant. That's still a fair evaluation because in an arm wrestling contest, the Khan could probably beat his giant booty.

-Dorn just didn't have the screen time to disprove this. I wish I could say more on his martial prowess, but the story to support it just isn't there in my history.

-Lorgar WAS the worst fighter. He wasn't a warrior, he was a scholar. Unlike Magnus, he didn't embrace himself as a beacon of power until much later when he became mini-magnus.

-Manus was regarded as one of the physically strongest of the primarchs and Horus admits twice that Manus would have waged a war against him that would have seen both of their armies ground to dust and the Imperium defenseless.