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 GKTiberius wrote:

Your point here is the freedom to question. My point is that you willingly did it in a thread where that is a derail.

Post a new thread if you're legitimately interested. That you haven't yet shows me that not only are you not actually interested, but that this entire argument you've kept going is just a very tenacious attempt to flame.

But questioning something isn't derailing it. I genuinely want you to support your assertions. ans asking you to do so is neither flaming, trolling. or derailing, it is a common and widely accepted part of having a discussion. You continue to deflect questions of the validity of your premise and accuse me of flaming and trolling you. I have not insulted you, unlike your barbs and jibes at my maturity level. and I'm not trying to derail the conversation, i just want you to substantiate your claims. You cannot just put a premise out there and say "Ok guys, can we all just accept this, despite its questionable feasibility" without supporting evidence.

Also I would argue that my questions are relevant to the central theme and topic of this thread, which means that a new thread isn't necessary as this is a perfectly legitimate platform to discuss this topic.

You have little to no interest in speculation. You are trolling, though I don't know why. You've made me lose my temper and I hope that admission satisfies whatever need drove you to destroying my thread. I've requested that it be closed.

 Shidank wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

Your point here is the freedom to question. My point is that you willingly did it in a thread where that is a derail.

Post a new thread if you're legitimately interested. That you haven't yet shows me that not only are you not actually interested, but that this entire argument you've kept going is just a very tenacious attempt to flame.

But questioning something isn't derailing it. I genuinely want you to support your assertions. ans asking you to do so is neither flaming, trolling. or derailing, it is a common and widely accepted part of having a discussion. You continue to deflect questions of the validity of your premise and accuse me of flaming and trolling you. I have not insulted you, unlike your barbs and jibes at my maturity level. and I'm not trying to derail the conversation, i just want you to substantiate your claims. You cannot just put a premise out there and say "Ok guys, can we all just accept this, despite its questionable feasibility" without supporting evidence.

Also I would argue that my questions are relevant to the central theme and topic of this thread, which means that a new thread isn't necessary as this is a perfectly legitimate platform to discuss this topic.

You have little to no interest in speculation. You are trolling, though I don't know why. You've made me lose my temper and I hope that admission satisfies whatever need drove you to destroying my thread. I've requested that it be closed.

I am sorry that my inquires made you feel you needed to close the thread,that certainly wasn't my intention.

The number one rule here on Dakka Dakka is...Rule #1.

All discussion has to take place within the bounds of that rule.

As long as it does - great!

This is a discussion forum though, so at times, the thread may wander to strange places.

So, staying on topic is also a rule here - but perhaps not as hard and fast a rule as Rule #1.

And on top of all that, please remember that we're here to have fun, talking about the hobby that we all love - and that ultimately it is about toy soldiers and the fictitious background that goes along with them!

 Alpharius wrote:
The number one rule here on Dakka Dakka is...Rule #1.

All discussion has to take place within the bounds of that rule.

As long as it does - great!

This is a discussion forum though, so at times, the thread may wander to strange places.

So, staying on topic is also a rule here - but perhaps not as hard and fast a rule as Rule #1.

And on top of all that, please remember that we're here to have fun, talking about the hobby that we all love - and that ultimately it is about toy soldiers and the fictitious background that goes along with them!

Thank you.

 Shidank wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Ferrus Manus had the charisma of an oyster. He knew it himself and recognised this as his greatest mistake. He would have trouble turning his own Legion to Chaos let alone other Primarchs. Ferrus Manus would have been the worst choice after Kurze. After all, he was troubled by his Legion attitude toward bionic and flesh, but didn't knew how to adress it under the current circomstances.

but he might have been able to get more of the mechanicus to turn. Turn the rebellion into even more of logistical nightmare and win if ALL the titan legions turned traitor.

Actually a valid point. Having the lion's share of titan legions and knight houses would have an impact.

A flat out battle between Earth and Mars would have been very different at least.

agreed. based on what has been released for HH and Ad. Mech i'm not sure that earth, even with the proto-astartes could have won that one. Titan legions versus fledgling imperial forces and proto-astartes would be a difficult fight at best.

 Exergy wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Ferrus Manus had the charisma of an oyster. He knew it himself and recognised this as his greatest mistake. He would have trouble turning his own Legion to Chaos let alone other Primarchs. Ferrus Manus would have been the worst choice after Kurze. After all, he was troubled by his Legion attitude toward bionic and flesh, but didn't knew how to adress it under the current circomstances.

but he might have been able to get more of the mechanicus to turn. Turn the rebellion into even more of logistical nightmare and win if ALL the titan legions turned traitor.

Actually a valid point. Having the lion's share of titan legions and knight houses would have an impact.

A flat out battle between Earth and Mars would have been very different at least.

We saw a hint of how this would be with the Ring of Iron. An all-out would have been much more devastating. The more practical of the primarchs(Pert, the Lion, etc.) would likely have gauged Manus's early success and either stepped aside or thrown their lot in depending on how it went.

How much of Horus's efforts were put into subjugating forge worlds? Without that drain on war resources, how smooth would his advance have been? Retention of forces is something Horus didn't really do well. Massive losses preceded his advance on Terra, but I just couldn't see Manus engaging where there isn't a necessary objective. Had he the Word Bearers, he would likely have spent them in much the same was as Horus. Past that, I wonder where he would have differed from the original Heresy?

 Shidank wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Ferrus Manus had the charisma of an oyster. He knew it himself and recognised this as his greatest mistake. He would have trouble turning his own Legion to Chaos let alone other Primarchs. Ferrus Manus would have been the worst choice after Kurze. After all, he was troubled by his Legion attitude toward bionic and flesh, but didn't knew how to adress it under the current circomstances.

Kurze was a fantastic choice. He would have done the one thing none of the other Primarchs could have done.

He would have let the Emperor kill him... and the fallout would have been MUCH worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

2BlackJack1 wrote:
Didn't Horus ever mention that Rowboat would've made a good Warmaster? If not him, I'm pretty sure Hours said someone deserved the honor more than he did.

Girlyman was one of the worst combatants of the primarchs.

Him, Magnus, Manus, Dorn, and Lorgar, I think, make up the bottom rung.

LOL MAGNUS?
I'm speechless.

I'll admit, I don't know where Norton gets this stuff lol

The fight between him and Russ, clearly.

Also the only other person i am aware of that anyone was ok with being warmaster besides horus (apart from the lion who thought it should be him) was sangunius.

What does it matter who can beat who? We are talking about the job of orchestrating warfare on a galactic scale; trillions of soldiers, millions of tanks, tens of thousands of cruisers and battleships. Thousands of armies and fleets that need to be precisely managed. Personal combat prowess is completely irrelevant. It's about as important as your ability to arrange a pretty bouquet of flowers.

tgjensen wrote:
What does it matter who can beat who? We are talking about the job of orchestrating warfare on a galactic scale; trillions of soldiers, millions of tanks, tens of thousands of cruisers and battleships. Thousands of armies and fleets that need to be precisely managed. Personal combat prowess is completely irrelevant. It's about as important as your ability to arrange a pretty bouquet of flowers.

As I've pointed out before on this thread, the Horus Heresy fell to pieces after Horus died, with all but Alpha Legion and the Night Lords fleeing to the Eye of Terror.

Given that the Horus Heresy was stopped by killing the Warmaster, it seems safe to say that the Manus Heresy will end the same way- but much quicker, because the list of Primarchs that could kill him is MUCH longer than Horus's.

tgjensen wrote:
What does it matter who can beat who? We are talking about the job of orchestrating warfare on a galactic scale; trillions of soldiers, millions of tanks, tens of thousands of cruisers and battleships. Thousands of armies and fleets that need to be precisely managed. Personal combat prowess is completely irrelevant. It's about as important as your ability to arrange a pretty bouquet of flowers.

Well put! After all, this is Warhammer 40K, not Dragonball Z.

Considering Manus's mind and efficiency, I think it would have been devastating.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
, because the list of Primarchs that could kill him is MUCH longer than Horus's.

Horus had a very short list. Or maybe they just never finished it.

I would think if Manus were running things, Perturabo wouldn't hold out long. His legion was most bitter towards the Imperium and Pert himself held Manus and his legion in great esteem.

Since the Iron Warriors garrisoned so many worlds, rather than have them turn incendiary as Horus did, I feel Manus would have them continue being productive. Horus put too much emphasis on, "Join or burn" whereas Manus would view every resource at his disposal as just that, a resource. If they stopped producing, he would snuff them out and move on. no elaborate daemon shows unless perpetrated by agents from other legions or through data daemons employed by seconded Iron Hands.

That raises the question of legion loyalty as well. As with the current traitor legions, would Manus have to put down such a significant force from his own legion? Considering the insane difficulty the Iron Hands put on aspirants, it seems unlikely they would entertain notions of betraying their Primarch.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

tgjensen wrote:
What does it matter who can beat who? We are talking about the job of orchestrating warfare on a galactic scale; trillions of soldiers, millions of tanks, tens of thousands of cruisers and battleships. Thousands of armies and fleets that need to be precisely managed. Personal combat prowess is completely irrelevant. It's about as important as your ability to arrange a pretty bouquet of flowers.

As I've pointed out before on this thread, the Horus Heresy fell to pieces after Horus died, with all but Alpha Legion and the Night Lords fleeing to the Eye of Terror.

Given that the Horus Heresy was stopped by killing the Warmaster, it seems safe to say that the Manus Heresy will end the same way- but much quicker, because the list of Primarchs that could kill him is MUCH longer than Horus's.

If ferrus did for some reason turn traitor (ugh the heresy of it!), you have to remember that he would also have gotten all juiced up with the chaos powers like Horus. Horus wasn't even a great fighter, he was a jack of all trades, master of none. Basically what I'm saying is that it wouldn't be as easy to kill a chaos ferrus as you think, because he would have the dark gods backing him.

Clockwork Iron wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

tgjensen wrote:
What does it matter who can beat who? We are talking about the job of orchestrating warfare on a galactic scale; trillions of soldiers, millions of tanks, tens of thousands of cruisers and battleships. Thousands of armies and fleets that need to be precisely managed. Personal combat prowess is completely irrelevant. It's about as important as your ability to arrange a pretty bouquet of flowers.

As I've pointed out before on this thread, the Horus Heresy fell to pieces after Horus died, with all but Alpha Legion and the Night Lords fleeing to the Eye of Terror.

Given that the Horus Heresy was stopped by killing the Warmaster, it seems safe to say that the Manus Heresy will end the same way- but much quicker, because the list of Primarchs that could kill him is MUCH longer than Horus's.

If ferrus did for some reason turn traitor (ugh the heresy of it!), you have to remember that he would also have gotten all juiced up with the chaos powers like Horus. Horus wasn't even a great fighter, he was a jack of all trades, master of none. Basically what I'm saying is that it wouldn't be as easy to kill a chaos ferrus as you think, because he would have the dark gods backing him.

Maybe we should start a thread asking if necrodermis could ever be corrupted? I would lean towards ,"no"

That said, we have an Iron Warrior in 40k with a necrodermis armt hat doesn't seem to damage him. Maybe someone could shed more light on this than I can?

Clockwork Iron wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

tgjensen wrote:
What does it matter who can beat who? We are talking about the job of orchestrating warfare on a galactic scale; trillions of soldiers, millions of tanks, tens of thousands of cruisers and battleships. Thousands of armies and fleets that need to be precisely managed. Personal combat prowess is completely irrelevant. It's about as important as your ability to arrange a pretty bouquet of flowers.

As I've pointed out before on this thread, the Horus Heresy fell to pieces after Horus died, with all but Alpha Legion and the Night Lords fleeing to the Eye of Terror.

Given that the Horus Heresy was stopped by killing the Warmaster, it seems safe to say that the Manus Heresy will end the same way- but much quicker, because the list of Primarchs that could kill him is MUCH longer than Horus's.

If ferrus did for some reason turn traitor (ugh the heresy of it!), you have to remember that he would also have gotten all juiced up with the chaos powers like Horus. Horus wasn't even a great fighter, he was a jack of all trades, master of none. Basically what I'm saying is that it wouldn't be as easy to kill a chaos ferrus as you think, because he would have the dark gods backing him.

Horus was master of all. The greatest of the primarchs in almost every way.

 Exergy wrote:

Clockwork Iron wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

tgjensen wrote:
What does it matter who can beat who? We are talking about the job of orchestrating warfare on a galactic scale; trillions of soldiers, millions of tanks, tens of thousands of cruisers and battleships. Thousands of armies and fleets that need to be precisely managed. Personal combat prowess is completely irrelevant. It's about as important as your ability to arrange a pretty bouquet of flowers.

As I've pointed out before on this thread, the Horus Heresy fell to pieces after Horus died, with all but Alpha Legion and the Night Lords fleeing to the Eye of Terror.

Given that the Horus Heresy was stopped by killing the Warmaster, it seems safe to say that the Manus Heresy will end the same way- but much quicker, because the list of Primarchs that could kill him is MUCH longer than Horus's.

If ferrus did for some reason turn traitor (ugh the heresy of it!), you have to remember that he would also have gotten all juiced up with the chaos powers like Horus. Horus wasn't even a great fighter, he was a jack of all trades, master of none. Basically what I'm saying is that it wouldn't be as easy to kill a chaos ferrus as you think, because he would have the dark gods backing him.

Horus was master of all. The greatest of the primarchs in almost every way.

... except Sang is better than him in all of them.

Horus was meant to be the most balanced and effective with a poise and personality that his brothers could admire and which came from confidence in himself and his legion.

This does not imply he could beat up his brothers. This isn't a contest where we each shout about how tough our dads are. C'mon fellas.

 Shidank wrote:
Outcast Dead- Look for Kai Zulane's regicide game with the Emperor. It's not nearly so subtle as GK believes.

I don't have Outcast Dead.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
As I've pointed out before on this thread, the Horus Heresy fell to pieces after Horus died, with all but Alpha Legion and the Night Lords fleeing to the Eye of Terror.

Given that the Horus Heresy was stopped by killing the Warmaster, it seems safe to say that the Manus Heresy will end the same way- but much quicker, because the list of Primarchs that could kill him is MUCH longer than Horus's.

The Heresy fell apart when Horus died, but it was also a foregone conclusion that the traitors were going to lose anyway. Even if they had kept on fighting, they would have been destroyed after getting sandwiched inbetween the Terran defenders and the newly arrived Wolves, Ultramarines etc.

People make statements like "all you have to do is kil the leader" implying that it's easy to get to the leader in the first place. There's an entire army (several, in fact) between any loyalist Primarch and Ferrus Manus. Assuming Manus is intelligent enough to become Warmaster (a dubious theoretical in itself) and is charismatic enough to lead other legions into rebellion (even more dubious), it's likely that Manus would be intelligent enough to realize the danger of engaging other Primarchs in single combat, and would avoid putting himself in that situation.