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This is the one thing that has bothered me most of all about 40K models. Lightning claws are supposed to be completely different than powerfists, and are described as such in the fluff. Yet for some reason the models are lazily just fork tongs slapped on a powerfist. I understand there would have to be some extra bulk to house the power weapons on a regular gauntlet, but having a whole powerfist seems to defeat the whole point. Plus, that's the whole reason why powerfists strike at I1.

Has anybody else noticed this?

Yes. I've noticed it very pointedly while trying to make a Lugft Huron model. His weapon is the Ghost Razor, a fancy shmancy Lightning Claw and I've had to buy a Chaos Terminator Lord for it. They have some pretty friggin awesome melee weapons.

Chaos and Forge World have the best looking Lightning Claws, and Huron's actual model from Astral Claws. The Warp Talon kit though... So many claws and so pretty...

Prior to 3rd edition Lightning Claws used the same statline as Power Gloves/Fists, except a Lightning Claw would inflict D3 wounds where a Glove/Fist would only inflict 1. They changed the rules but neglected to change the model.

Yup, it's just a remnant of their original rules, when they were just power fists with blades added on...

Wow, well that explains things. It seems like a pretty lazy design flaw. It really bothers me to the point of not putting lightning claws on my models. I guess its something they won't fix any time soon.

The reason that fists strike at I 1 isn't entirely because they're so big and bulky, as the armor easily compensates for this, it's that using your fists isn't as easy as swinging a sword. They're unwieldy, meaning it's downright awkward to use against a guy that has, say, a sword. While you're trying to get in close enough to rip his arm off, he can casually poke at you with his long pointy stick while you're attempting to get within a foot of him, and it probably isn't spectacularly easy to block using a fist either (at least not as easy as something long like a sword or staff).

As an example, find a friend. Challenge him/her to a "fight". Your opponent gets a broom handle... you need to touch them without letting the broom handle so much as touch you. This is why other weapons always get to swing before fists.

The reason that lightning claws do hit at initiative is that they're longer, and you can just wildly rake your arms around to hit stuff at a decent range.

If you say that just because something's heavy it's unwieldy, then a maul should be unwieldy too, and an axe should hit at initiative. Maul's hit fine because they're easy to use (like swinging a baseball bat) and axes are unwieldy because while they deal heavy damage, it's harder to recover from swinging one than other weapons, you can only hack with them, and their shape means they aren't spectacularly easy to use to block.... meaning unwieldy. And they'd be broken if they hit on initiative.

As for hammers, I can only assume they're that dang big that you need to wind up to swing them even with power armor on. Honestly the fact that hammers hit at I1 makes the least sense out of it all, as they're rather long and you're not going to parry one easily.

Just my 2 cents concerning how the weapons perform.

I think that thunder hammers should double strength but not be as low AP as they are. They aren't very penetrative.

 Spellbound wrote:
I think that thunder hammers should double strength but not be as low AP as they are. They aren't very penetrative.

They don't need to be, they have enough force to turn your innards into red paste.


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So it does make sense that they ignore armour.


In fact, the least accurate of the weapon is probably the maul, because that would also turn you into paste too, regardless of whatever armour your wearing.

 herpguy wrote:
Wow, well that explains things. It seems like a pretty lazy design flaw.

Of course it's not. Otherwise, there'd be confusion about what difference there is between the earlier models back when it had gloves that did something, and redesigned ones. Then we'd get threads about why big glove claws and nu-claws have the exact same rules.

 kingbobbito wrote:
The reason that fists strike at I 1 isn't entirely because they're so big and bulky, as the armor easily compensates for this, it's that using your fists isn't as easy as swinging a sword. They're unwieldy, meaning it's downright awkward to use against a guy that has, say, a sword. While you're trying to get in close enough to rip his arm off, he can casually poke at you with his long pointy stick while you're attempting to get within a foot of him, and it probably isn't spectacularly easy to block using a fist either (at least not as easy as something long like a sword or staff).

As an example, find a friend. Challenge him/her to a "fight". Your opponent gets a broom handle... you need to touch them without letting the broom handle so much as touch you. This is why other weapons always get to swing before fists.

The reason that lightning claws do hit at initiative is that they're longer, and you can just wildly rake your arms around to hit stuff at a decent range.

If you say that just because something's heavy it's unwieldy, then a maul should be unwieldy too, and an axe should hit at initiative. Maul's hit fine because they're easy to use (like swinging a baseball bat) and axes are unwieldy because while they deal heavy damage, it's harder to recover from swinging one than other weapons, you can only hack with them, and their shape means they aren't spectacularly easy to use to block.... meaning unwieldy. And they'd be broken if they hit on initiative.

As for hammers, I can only assume they're that dang big that you need to wind up to swing them even with power armor on. Honestly the fact that hammers hit at I1 makes the least sense out of it all, as they're rather long and you're not going to parry one easily.

Just my 2 cents concerning how the weapons perform.

I think you're trying way too hard to justify unrealistic rules, lol.

 welshhoppo wrote:
In fact, the least accurate of the weapon is probably the maul, because that would also turn you into paste too, regardless of whatever armour your wearing.

Keep in mind that the armor marines wear is a lot more than just some sheets of steel draped over their body like real life armor. It's an exoskeleton that all joins together, that cushions blows and augments strength and is all connected together. When hit with a maul, some of the force is guaranteed to just be dispersed into the suit, especially when you're dealing with the sheer mass of terminator armor. It'd be like trying to kill someone sitting inside a car by hitting the hood.

Even if some of the force from the maul gets through, internal bleeding isn't going to kill a marine very easily, unless you smash him over the head perhaps.

Also, don't forget the difference between the two weapons. A power maul just has an energy field around it, meaning that it can penetrate armor to a certain degree, but it's also kind of blunt and won't "cut" as easily as an axe or sword. The thunder hammer, on the other hand, stores up all of its power until the moment of impact, at which point the thing basically explodes in a shockwave. So which is more likely to pulp innards, a baseball bat that can kind of destroy armor, or a sledgehammer that has the force of C4 detonating whilst pressed against your torso?


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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think you're trying way too hard to justify unrealistic rules, lol.

It's true, the rules are in part designed to make the game work better, but all of it does make some sense real-world wise, and it wasn't that hard to justify. I mean, if you just ignore power fields and exploding hammers and power armor that is

 kingbobbito wrote:
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think you're trying way too hard to justify unrealistic rules, lol.

It's true, the rules are in part designed to make the game work better, but all of it does make some sense real-world wise, and it wasn't that hard to justify. I mean, if you just ignore power fields and exploding hammers and power armor that is

I more so meant because a lot of your justifications don't sound right. Fists in and of themselves aren't unwieldy like you suggest, they are unwieldy when you put a giant powered glove on them. You said it would probably be easier to block with a sword than a fist which I'm pretty sure is just not true. Swords are terrible things for blocking, the force of the block goes through your wrist at an awkward angle and you only have to be slightly wrong (or your opponent make a slight adjustment) for the block to useless. Lightning claws the way GW modelled them WOULD be unwieldy in reality in spite of their range advantage over power fists.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think you're trying way too hard to justify unrealistic rules, lol.

It's true, the rules are in part designed to make the game work better, but all of it does make some sense real-world wise, and it wasn't that hard to justify. I mean, if you just ignore power fields and exploding hammers and power armor that is

I more so meant because a lot of your justifications don't sound right. Fists in and of themselves aren't unwieldy like you suggest, they are unwieldy when you put a giant powered glove on them. You said it would probably be easier to block with a sword than a fist which I'm pretty sure is just not true. Swords are terrible things for blocking, the force of the block goes through your wrist at an awkward angle and you only have to be slightly wrong (or your opponent make a slight adjustment) for the block to useless. Lightning claws the way GW modelled them WOULD be unwieldy in reality in spite of their range advantage over power fists.

Why would you say that regular fists aren't unwieldy? In what world are bare fists a weapon that you can easily hit an opponent before he hits you? Bare fists can't block, and bare fists have what, two feet of reach? Are you trying to tell me that if you come at me with your bare fists, you're going to land a punch before I get to stab you with a sword that adds 3 feet to my reach? If I'm even a slightly skilled swordsman you're not going to get within 5 feet of me without a very high risk of getting stabbed.

As for blocking with your fists (we'll assume a power fist protects your hand down to the wrist), why would this be easier than a sword or a staff? Yes, blocking with a sword means it jars my wrist (although I assume power armor would absorb some of the shock), and it's possible for my opponent to get around my block, yes. But even if I'm not familiar at all with how to use a crossguard, I can at least use my sword as a big metal rod and catch it on the flat of the blade. You with your fist need to judge the exact angle my sword is coming in and genuinely catch the blade. Otherwise the sword just glances at an angle because the fist is rounded and hits a few inches to the side of where I was aiming (your shoulder instead of your head). Either that or I catch you at the wrist and cut your hand off, since the whole arm isn't shielded. Would you say that using one hand you could genuinely catch a sword and that it'd be less risky than parrying with a sword?

Please don't take all this the wrong way, I'm just genuinely curious about your opinion of power fists. And I won't lie, I'd really hate using lightning claws as an actual weapon as you're basically just trying to wildly slap people....

it is a bit silly.

Like, it would be nice if say, warp talons could retract their lightning claws, and punch stuff occasionally...

 kingbobbito wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think you're trying way too hard to justify unrealistic rules, lol.

It's true, the rules are in part designed to make the game work better, but all of it does make some sense real-world wise, and it wasn't that hard to justify. I mean, if you just ignore power fields and exploding hammers and power armor that is

I more so meant because a lot of your justifications don't sound right. Fists in and of themselves aren't unwieldy like you suggest, they are unwieldy when you put a giant powered glove on them. You said it would probably be easier to block with a sword than a fist which I'm pretty sure is just not true. Swords are terrible things for blocking, the force of the block goes through your wrist at an awkward angle and you only have to be slightly wrong (or your opponent make a slight adjustment) for the block to useless. Lightning claws the way GW modelled them WOULD be unwieldy in reality in spite of their range advantage over power fists.

Why would you say that regular fists aren't unwieldy? In what world are bare fists a weapon that you can easily hit an opponent before he hits you? Bare fists can't block, and bare fists have what, two feet of reach? Are you trying to tell me that if you come at me with your bare fists, you're going to land a punch before I get to stab you with a sword that adds 3 feet to my reach? If I'm even a slightly skilled swordsman you're not going to get within 5 feet of me without a very high risk of getting stabbed.

The problem with bringing fists to a sword fight is not that the fists are unwieldy, it's that if you block a sword with your fists, you'll lose a hand. If you punch someone it has no where near the force of a sword or even a stick where the stick has a whole bunch of momentum.

It's not that bare fists are unwieldy, it's that they are made of flesh and bone and you can't generate the momentum to create a big wallop like you can with a stick.

In the magical world where you have powered fists that are tough enough to block a sword and strong enough to turn an opponent to pulp in one hit the fists would be awesome and certainly not "unwieldy". The reason power fists are unwieldy is because in 40k they are big and bulky and slow.

Place long sharp things on your fists like you see in 40k representing lightning claws and now THAT is unwieldy because you massively reduce your range of motion without significantly increasing your ability to generate more momentum (like a stick or a sword can).

As for blocking with your fists (we'll assume a power fist protects your hand down to the wrist), why would this be easier than a sword or a staff? Yes, blocking with a sword means it jars my wrist (although I assume power armor would absorb some of the shock), and it's possible for my opponent to get around my block, yes. But even if I'm not familiar at all with how to use a crossguard, I can at least use my sword as a big metal rod and catch it on the flat of the blade. You with your fist need to judge the exact angle my sword is coming in and genuinely catch the blade. Otherwise the sword just glances at an angle because the fist is rounded and hits a few inches to the side of where I was aiming (your shoulder instead of your head). Either that or I catch you at the wrist and cut your hand off, since the whole arm isn't shielded. Would you say that using one hand you could genuinely catch a sword and that it'd be less risky than parrying with a sword?

Well I could be wrong, but I imagine you'd be using your fist like a buckler more than anything, batting away the opponents sword. Because your hand is actually attached to your arm you can move it faster (less inertia) to block.

If you're stabbing in a fencing type manner I imagine it'd be very hard to keep hold of your sword if your opponent can just bat it away with uber armoured fists and charge you or grab it and punch you.

Obviously it'd be an interesting duel and I'm sure there'd be no easy winner either way, but I certainly don't think you could describe fists as being unwieldy unless you take in to account power fists are artificially made bulky and unwieldy.

Probably cause termies with tiny claw fists would look like parrots.

Gashrog wrote:Prior to 3rd edition Lightning Claws used the same statline as Power Gloves/Fists, except a Lightning Claw would inflict D3 wounds where a Glove/Fist would only inflict 1. They changed the rules but neglected to change the model.

insaniak wrote:Yup, it's just a remnant of their original rules, when they were just power fists with blades added on...

This timeline doesn't match with the question. I think he is asking why models have the knuckle duster blades that don't move, instead of the claws that are part of the gloves' fingers. Before third edition, all the models had claws that are at the gloves' fingers.

 kingbobbito wrote:
The reason that fists strike at I 1 isn't entirely because they're so big and bulky, as the armor easily compensates for this, it's that using your fists isn't as easy as swinging a sword. They're unwieldy, meaning it's downright awkward to use against a guy that has, say, a sword. While you're trying to get in close enough to rip his arm off, he can casually poke at you with his long pointy stick while you're attempting to get within a foot of him, and it probably isn't spectacularly easy to block using a fist either (at least not as easy as something long like a sword or staff).

As an example, find a friend. Challenge him/her to a "fight". Your opponent gets a broom handle... you need to touch them without letting the broom handle so much as touch you. This is why other weapons always get to swing before fists.

The reason that lightning claws do hit at initiative is that they're longer, and you can just wildly rake your arms around to hit stuff at a decent range.

If you say that just because something's heavy it's unwieldy, then a maul should be unwieldy too, and an axe should hit at initiative. Maul's hit fine because they're easy to use (like swinging a baseball bat) and axes are unwieldy because while they deal heavy damage, it's harder to recover from swinging one than other weapons, you can only hack with them, and their shape means they aren't spectacularly easy to use to block.... meaning unwieldy. And they'd be broken if they hit on initiative.

As for hammers, I can only assume they're that dang big that you need to wind up to swing them even with power armor on. Honestly the fact that hammers hit at I1 makes the least sense out of it all, as they're rather long and you're not going to parry one easily.

Just my 2 cents concerning how the weapons perform.

See, all of this seems insane to me. Raking your arms around? It has to be different than that.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I think he is asking why models have the knuckle duster blades that don't move, instead of the claws that are part of the gloves' fingers. .

He wasn't. He was asking why they're just blades added to a powerfist. Which even the old design was, ultimately.

Idk I kind of like the claws you can get with the SW models because you can get some poses that actually look like they're fighting with the weapons. I have one model with one of the old SW heads that was Wolverine (I love that they have and still do sneak things like the Mr. T head wolverine and a couple pro wrestlers into the SW bits) and he really looks like he's hurling himself into combat.

Tbh I always figured the weapon itself didn't really matter and it was all about how fast the energy field charged up and deployed. Like it's probably faster but slightly less potent to charge up a blade than it is a big glove or hammer head. It's not like you'd get enough leverage with those shoulder pads and elbow joints to really swing one of those things hard enough to hurt somebody without the hand wavey super powerful energy field. Realistically a Space Marine could probably raise that glove what, a couple feel from his body and bring it down?

Chaos has the real stuff

I remember some old fluff which had a bit about being able to retract the blades of the power claw into the fist when not in combat or something - more research is needed for confirmation, but i don't think i'm going mental just yet.

 Spellbound wrote:
I think that thunder hammers should double strength but not be as low AP as they are. They aren't very penetrative.

Sure, a heavy blunt weapon won't penetrate armor but a hit will hurt the guy inside it. That's why people switched to hammers and maces once plate armor got too good. The guy inside the armor would be bruised black and blue, and the hammer blows deformed pieces of the armor so that movement got harder.

The AP mechanic is an abstraction in itself. The rulebook talks about "punching through" but that's not necessarily what happens - a Monstrous Creature (Smash) could just be such a powerful blow that it breaks things in you without actually getting through your armor. Or an explosion like a Battle Cannon shell that denies basic Marines their saves... The armor could well be almost intact even if the marine dies of internal injuries from the blast.


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 SirDonlad wrote:
I remember some old fluff which had a bit about being able to retract the blades of the power claw into the fist when not in combat or something - more research is needed for confirmation, but i don't think i'm going mental just yet.

No, I'm sure I remember something like that too.

the_scotsman wrote:


Tbh I always figured the weapon itself didn't really matter and it was all about how fast the energy field charged up and deployed. Like it's probably faster but slightly less potent to charge up a blade than it is a big glove or hammer head. It's not like you'd get enough leverage with those shoulder pads and elbow joints to really swing one of those things hard enough to hurt somebody without the hand wavey super powerful energy field. Realistically a Space Marine could probably raise that glove what, a couple feel from his body and bring it down?

Do you even Astorath? http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/12/8/302763_sm-Angels%20Sanguine,%20Astorath%20The%20Grim,%20Blood%20Angels,%20Space%20Marines.JPG

people don't really wind up with weapons like that. The usefulness of lots of weapons is that the handle is at one end and the.chopping part is at the other end, so you just use your hand. The other end rotates pretty fast if you just use your finger and your thumb.

Plus lightning claws are a stabbing weapon. Stand still with your hand out in front of you with the fingers splayed out and wiggle the fingers around. If you have a lightning claw with motorized powerfist fingers, you can use your thumb or some of your fingers to parry someone and still have your other fingers pointed straight at them. Then just straighten your arm and stab them with that finger.

The wargear section always says they are hard to use.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Before third edition, all the models had claws that are at the gloves' fingers.

Only Abaddon the Despoiler had a lightning claw with blades on the fingers. ordinary Imperial Terminators (the only units which had access to them) used Lightning claws which had the blades attached to the metacarpophalangeal joints, making them look like Wolverine. Those older designs did at least leave the wielder with a functional grasping hand, unlike the current version.

Original 1st edition Lightning Claws:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap017smterminators-00.htm

2nd edition:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat2000/c2000p024-00.htm

I always looked at them as being a modification of the Power Glove, which used the glove's existing power field generators to energise the blades, which is why Lightning Claws have always looked like spiky Power Gloves.

I thought I had read somewhere, that the PFG utilized a shield to amplify the force behind the user, projecting it's initial damage field and causes restrained backlash so as to not break the users arms and joints.

The Lightning Claw variant of the PFG actually sapped that initial shielding so the claws could vibrate, heat up and tear through armor better? IIRC Im a little rusty on my 40k Lore with Weapons lol

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
Before third edition, all the models had claws that are at the gloves' fingers.

Only Abaddon the Despoiler had a lightning claw with blades on the fingers. ordinary Imperial Terminators (the only units which had access to them) used Lightning claws which had the blades attached to the metacarpophalangeal joints, making them look like Wolverine. Those older designs did at least leave the wielder with a functional grasping hand, unlike the current version.

Original 1st edition Lightning Claws:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap017smterminators-00.htm

2nd edition:
http://www.solegends.com/citcat2000/c2000p024-00.htm

I always looked at them as being a modification of the Power Glove, which used the glove's existing power field generators to energise the blades, which is why Lightning Claws have always looked like spiky Power Gloves.

Alright, they are articulated along those joints, and are not in a rigid array from later models.


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And, actually, the wargear book describes them as slashing instruments. However, this is dumb. The chaos power talons are very reasonable and useful, assuming they are really big ones that come on Terminator armor.

No, the older Lightning Claws had fixed blades, as do the current ones.