Greece to Germany: Actually you owe us!

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Manchu**

What a sense of timing the Greeks have ...

The Greek government says Germany owes Greece nearly €279bn (£204bn; $303bn) in war reparations for the Nazi occupation during World War Two.

It is the first time Greece has officially calculated what Germany allegedly owes it for Nazi atrocities and looting during the 1940s.

However, the German government says the issue was resolved legally years ago.

Greece's radical left Syriza government is making the claim while struggling to meet massive debt repayment deadlines.

Reacting to the Greek claim, German Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel said it was "dumb" to link Greece's bailout by the eurozone with the question of war reparations.

"To be honest I think it's dumb. I think that it doesn't move us forward one millimetre on the question of stabilising Greece," he said.

He said ordinary Greek citizens however deserved "huge respect" for their economic sacrifices under the bailout programme. The Greek elite had "plundered" the country, he complained.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras raised the reparations issue when he met German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin last month.

The new figure given by Greek Deputy Finance Minister Dimitris Mardas includes €10.3bn for an occupation loan that the Nazis forced the Bank of Greece to pay.

"According to our calculations, the debt linked to German reparations is 278.7bn euros," Mr Mardas told a parliamentary committee investigating responsibility for Greece's debt crisis.
Mr Mardas said the reparations calculation had been made by Greece's state general accounting office.

Berlin paid 115m Deutschmarks to Athens in 1960 in compensation - a fraction of the Greek demand. Greece says it did not cover payments for damaged infrastructure, war crimes and the return of the forced loan.

Germany insists the reparations issue was settled in 1990, before Germany reunified.

The budget spokesman for Chancellor Merkel's Christian Democrats, Eckhardt Rehberg, reiterated on Tuesday that "the reparations issue is for us closed, politically and legally - the same applies to the so-called forced loan".

Syriza politicians have frequently blamed Germany for Greek citizens' hardship under the austerity imposed by international lenders.

Mr Tsipras is trying to renegotiate the €240bn EU-IMF bailout that saved Greece from bankruptcy. Greece has not received bailout funds since August last year, as the lenders are dissatisfied with the pace of Greek reforms.

A Greek repayment of €448m to the International Monetary Fund is due this Thursday.

Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis has said that Greece "intends to meet all obligations to all its creditors, ad infinitum".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32202768

**whembly**

That's some serious desperation there...

**Iron_Captain**

Did not the British invade Greece as well? Look out guys, soon the Greeks will be demanding your money as well

Germany should pay for its war crimes, however in this case I think the Greeks' timing is slightly suspicious. Maybe an independent commission could look into how much the Germans still owe Greece, if any.

**Sgt_Scruffy**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Did not the British invade Greece as well? Look out guys, soon the Greeks will be demanding your money as well
Germany should pay for its war crimes, however in this case I think the Greeks' timing is slightly suspicious. Maybe an independent commission could look into how much the Germans still owe Greece, if any.

It's extortion is what it is. There was no accusations of war crimes reparations when Greece came crawling hat in hand to beg for money from Germany, only when it comes time to pay the bill. Pathetic

**Medium of Death**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Germany should pay for its war crimes

Feth this idea.

70 years ago now. Why should a generation of young Germans have to pay for something they had no part in.

Utterly moronic.

Next you'll be telling me I need to pay for the slave trade or colonialism.

Utter gak.

**Frazzled**

Germany owes Greece 47Bazillion. Pay up Fritz. Don't make them clone Leonidas to come up there!

**Iron_Captain**

Medium of Death wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Germany should pay for its war crimes

Feth this idea.

70 years ago now. Why should a generation of young Germans have to pay for something they had no part in.

Utterly moronic.

Next you'll be telling me I need to pay for the slave trade or colonialism.

Utter gak.

It was the German state who committed those crimes. It is the German state who must pay for them. People come and go, but the state remains. The Bundesrepublik Deutschland, as direct and legal successor to the Deutsches Reich, bears the responsibility for this.
And yes, colonialism must also be paid for if it includes war crimes. The Dutch state for example has already had to pay up several times for the war crimes they committed in the Dutch East Indies. Slave trade is not a war crime afaik though, so you should be safe on that.

**1hadhq**

Frazzled wrote:
Germany owes Greece 47Bazillion. Pay up Fritz. Don't make them clone Leonidas to come up there!

OK. The Greek government shall receive 47 Bazillion fishslaps.

Whoever waits 70 Years can wait another 70 millenia.

**Frazzled**

This is madness? THIS IS DAKKA!

**Manchu**

I think all this really shows is how relevant WW2 has become to people frustrated with contemporary European politics. We saw similar Nazi-baiting rhetoric made by Russians and pro-Russians in Ukraine last year.

**Frazzled**

Well if anyone can demand reparations from Germany, Ukraine would be top of that list.

I wonder if they would take reparations in the form of Leopard II tanks...

**easysauce**

Medium of Death wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Germany should pay for its war crimes

Feth this idea.

70 years ago now. Why should a generation of young Germans have to pay for something they had no part in.

Utterly moronic.

Next you'll be telling me I need to pay for the slave trade or colonialism.

Utter gak.

well, considering how many people *do* expect more in the way or reparations/change/ect on your part due to the slave trade and colonialism....

I guess its just a sign of the times, no one wants to accept they are the arbiters of their own existence, its always someone elses fault.

Maybe all those areas that alexander the great conquered should get their repayment first?

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

There're not going to go after historic debt from centuries ago, are they?

If so, Britain and Mongolia are going bankrupt!

**kronk**

We never paid the UK back for that Tea incident in Boston, did we?

**ZebioLizard2**

Didn't they try this before, and Germany pointed out that they already paid Greece through the EU?

**Medium of Death**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Germany should pay for its war crimes

Feth this idea.

70 years ago now. Why should a generation of young Germans have to pay for something they had no part in.

Utterly moronic.

Next you'll be telling me I need to pay for the slave trade or colonialism.

Utter gak.

It was the German state who committed those crimes. It is the German state who must pay for them. People come and go, but the state remains. The Bundesrepublik Deutschland, as direct and legal successor to the Deutsches Reich, bears the responsibility for this.
And yes, colonialism must also be paid for if it includes war crimes. The Dutch state for example has already had to pay up several times for the war crimes they committed in the Dutch East Indies. Slave trade is not a war crime afaik though, so you should be safe on that.

Where does "The States'" money come from? Is it perhaps the taxpayers?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Medium of Death wrote:
Why should a generation of young Germans have to pay for something they had no part in.

Well, tons of Greek are paying for something they likely have no more responsibility in.

**Medium of Death**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
Why should a generation of young Germans have to pay for something they had no part in.

Well, tons of Greek are paying for something they likely have no more responsibility in.

Two wrongs?

**easysauce**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
Why should a generation of young Germans have to pay for something they had no part in.

Well, tons of Greek are paying for something they likely have no more responsibility in.

they have the responsibility, because its their current, elected government, and like it or not, they benefited from the money when it was coming in, so they are responsible for the flip side to that since they enjoyed the benefits.

While its not the same level of culpability youd get with direct, personal debt like a credit card in your name that you have maxed out, the fact is the greeks as a whole benefited from the money their government borrowed in their name.

**aldo**

Hmm, if Podemos (like Syriza but with Spaniards, sure it will be funny) wins maybe they'll kick the king and ask reparations too, and if the basques grow some guts and secede they may even ask for reparations over Guernika, this idea may start some quite interesting things.

Or go terribly wrong, which is way more likely.

**Dreadclaw69**

I don't think this is a new thing. The Greek government has brought this up consistently since austerity measures were put in place

Last month;
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/03/11/greece-raises-german-war-reparations-and-damages-again-germany-says-all-settled-already/

Feb this year;
http://www.fin24.com/Economy/Germany-rejects-Greek-claim-for-WWII-reparations-20150209

Last year;
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/06/us-greece-germany-war-idUSBREA2510O20140306
http://www.aljazeera.com/video/europe/2014/03/greece-seeks-war-reparations-from-berlin-201432515222587562.html
http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/greeces-wwii-reparations-denied-anew-by-germany
http://www.dw.de/german-president-gauck-dismisses-greek-reparation-demands-for-nazi-crimes/a-17480214

2013;
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/greece-international-law-determine-reparations
http://www.dw.de/greece-ponders-german-war-reparations/a-16744823
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/24/us-greece-germany-war-idUSBRE93N0IV20130424
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/04/09/greek-claims-of-german-war-reparations-owed-not-very-convincing/

**Ustrello**

Iron_Captain wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote:
Germany should pay for its war crimes

Feth this idea.

70 years ago now. Why should a generation of young Germans have to pay for something they had no part in.

Utterly moronic.

Next you'll be telling me I need to pay for the slave trade or colonialism.

Utter gak.

It was the German state who committed those crimes. It is the German state who must pay for them. People come and go, but the state remains. The Bundesrepublik Deutschland, as direct and legal successor to the Deutsches Reich, bears the responsibility for this.
And yes, colonialism must also be paid for if it includes war crimes. The Dutch state for example has already had to pay up several times for the war crimes they committed in the Dutch East Indies. Slave trade is not a war crime afaik though, so you should be safe on that.

So by that logic Russia should have quite a large amount of reparations to pay out

**Jihadin**

Next thing you know Greece going to sue all the Allies for not coming to their aid in time during WWII.

**Ustrello**

Jihadin wrote:
Next thing you know Greece going to sue all the Allies for not coming to their aid in time during WWII.

Greece v the world for the amount of 100 quadrillion dollars

**Iron_Captain**

Jihadin wrote:
Next thing you know Greece going to sue all the Allies for not coming to their aid in time during WWII.

And after that, they will sue Iran big time for the Persian invasions of Greece.

**Frazzled**

Greece just wants a jar of earth and a jar of water.

**Ustrello**

Frazzled wrote:
Greece just wants a jar of earth and a jar of water.

Spoiler:

**Soladrin**

Ok, can we get our loans back then?

**Spetulhu**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Well, tons of Greek are paying for something they likely have no more responsibility in.

Or something. One funny thing reporters encountered a few years back - when they went to Greece to have a look at the corruption behind the collapse - was, surprise surprise, corruption. Taking a cab from the airport the reporter had her first run-in with it. Seeing as she had company cards the cabbie asked if he should print the receipt on 150% or 200% of the real cost of the ride. He was greatly offended that the reporter didn't accept his help in taking some extra money from her employer. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. State employees in various bureaus and health care often take bribes to bump you to the top of the list. Tax evasion is a national sport. And when Greek reporters write about it they're the ones taken to court instead of the guys with Swiss numbered accounts.

**konst80hummel**

Well in Greece the enemy is usually the state. Or the clients (in the Roman sence of the word) of the other party.
I am not so sure as to what i can achieve here but here it goes.

Yes there is corruption. Every where. Yes there tax evasion. There is also something called cripling taxes... Up to 50% to what you gain. And social welfare payments that amount ot 1/3 of your salary. And no you can't say i have a private insurance and demand exception. One must pay for social wefare.

On another note besides the Problem of German Reparations (which i find quite hilarious) there is also the problem of a forced loan that was taken by the Nazis in WW2. A measly 10.3 Billion euros that the Nazis had actually started paying back...... And the German Rhetoric for not paying reparations is indeed funny. Or it would be if it weren't for you know ... war crimes.. that they ( the German State that is) consider proper persecution of the war. The video is in german but i think someone with better internet skill than i can at least find english subs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mnvKLoMC7Y
Move at bout 40.36 and onwards
edit: Yay english subs...