Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok as the main thread is now 15 pages long and growing I thought a summary might help the casual reader to avoid circular arguments.
I've tried to impartially and accurately show the crux of the argument here.
If you think the summary can be improved, please say and I can edit this post.
Please no dismissing of other peoples opinion as idiotic. Also don't argue the difference on this thread.
I'll readily admit I've opened myself up to accusations of non-impartially, but you have my assurance that impartiality is my intention.
I hope some people find this helpful

A concise (ish) summary of the rules relating to the arrival of Flying Monstrous Creatures (FMCs) via the Daemonkin (DK) Blood Tithe (BT), highlighting ambiguities and disputes.
Codex Daemonkin

p110 "The controlling player can choose to expend BT points at the start of any of his turns"
p111 " When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep strike..."

We can infer from this, That at the start of the turn, a unit arrives immediately (i.e Before the movement phase). We are told to arrive via deep strike, and therefore must logically apply the 'Arriving by Deep Strike rules'
Note that Codex: DK does not refer to reserves in any way.

Rulebook, p17
"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an event or action happens 'at the start of your turn'/ These are always resolved before your Movement phase."
The Turn summary table also makes clear, that you resolve your start of turn actions, then take your movement phase, where "you move any of your units which are capable of doing so."

P162- Deep Strike rules
We must bring the Daemonkin unit into the game using the 'Arriving by Deep Strike' rules. Not all rules will apply, so we must judge which ones do.
The first line
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves (pg 135) and then deploy them as follows:"

This line does not seem to apply, as we are not arriving by reserves, have not held the unit in reserves, nor have been told to apply any Reserve Roll, as the unit is arriving immediately.

The following 3 bullets gives the rules for arriving by deep strike, and all apply to the deamonkin without any potential conflict.

We come to a conundrum when deploying a FMC, as we must choose a flight mode.
The relevant rules are:
P68"
We are told the conditions for an FMC at the start of the game and arriving for reserve, which do not apply. however "If a FMC arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
#Judgement 1. This doesn't strictly apply, as we are not arriving by reserve. However we have no other options, and Codex: DK gives no indication, so a logical way to play it is to apply Swooping mode.
Other arguments have been presented that the controlling player should be able to choose whether the FMC swoops or glides.
another forum users opinion: "Why do they use 'counts as' here? This is normally used to mean something is in a different state but 'counts as' being in another state. For example, choosing gliding mode when arriving but still counting as being in swooping mode, so if, for example, an interceptor weapon shot it it would still be 6 to hit."


We are told about Changing Flight Mode
"At the start of its move, a FMC must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a FMC changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn"
This all makes sense, you change flight modes in your movement phase and may not change it for the rest of the turn. A unit arriving by Deep Strike Reserve will not be permitted to move in its movement phase, and therefore requires a starting condition. Another possible interpretation is that you can change flight modes in any 'move' regardless of phase, and the first move you make fixes your stance for the turn.
Another possible interpretation here is that a FMC may still declare its flight mode at the start of its move, without making a move or without having permission to move # Judgement 3
Its also worth noting that if Swooping an FMC is obliged to move at least 12". How this interacts with the restriction on moving from deep strike is not clear, but generally we assume the restriction overrides the compulsion (at least, this is how I've seen every gamer ever play it, the rules don't make it clear as far as I can see).


Back to Deep Strike, once the bullets are resolved, we are given some restrictions to apply.
p162

" In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.."

This line does not appear to apply, as the BT unit has not arrived during the movement phase. This will require a judgement and is a main point of contention #Judgement 2.
The remaining paragraphs in the Deep Striking section all appear to apply with no conflict. We can disregard the section on transports, and the Deep Strike Mishaps Section and table all apply with no issue.

#Judgement 2, there are two possible interpretations of the line
" In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.."
(other interpretations are possible, but these two seem to capture the issues best)

1: Deep Striking units which arrive in the movement phase, may not move any further

2: On the Turn in which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move in the movement phase.

Both interpretations have merit so a decision must be made as to which is the most applicable to the Rules As Written. Interpretation 1 does not apply to the BT, meaning that BT units can move in the movement phase (including changing flight modes).
Interpretation 2 does not permit BT units to move, and FMCs will remain in Swooping mode.
Some argue that interpretation 2 would permit all units deploying from reserve by deep strike to move twice, others argue that a Deep strike is another kind of move, and would permit the changing of flight modes.

A lot of the main YMDC thread was devoted to discussing if conventional reserves arrived at the start of turn or in the movement phase, no conclusion was reached, and I will not discuss that here for either case, as ultimately this is irrelevant to this issue, as the Blood Tithe does not use the rules for reserves. Also of interest is that the reserves section is clear that units arriving by reserve cannot move again in the movement phase, making the Deep Striking clarification superfluous for Deep Strike reserves:
p135, "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it... and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as Normal."
"Not you muse first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving reserves, before any other units can move. "

I hope people find this helpful

I'll copy my (shorter) summary across:

 BlackTalos wrote:
To be fair, the thread is getting quite long and i would not jump in now and read the whole 15 pages....

I'll try to sum up the RaW:

Flight modes:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare..."

So you must be able to move to changes Flight modes.


When does a Blood Thirster summoned by Blood tithe arrive?

a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike within range of the specified unit(s) on the board

So "at the start of the Turn"


When does a Blood Thirster in Deep Strike Reserves arrive?

Arriving from Reserve
[Snip]If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

So "at the start of the Turn"


What restrictions do these models, who arrived by Deep Strike, have?

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from (...).
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count (...)
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.

"At the start of its move, a FMC must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a FMC changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn" 
This all makes sense, you change flight modes in your movement phase and may not change it for the rest of the turn. A unit arriving by Deep Strike Reserve will not be permitted to move in its movement phase, and therefore requires a starting condition. 

This part seems bias as you take a rules quote then completely change the meaning in the summary.

Changing flight modes makes no mention of movement phase only move. If you declare a flight mode before moving you are stuck in that flight mode until the start of your next turn.

You also completely gloss over the fact in Judgement #2 that interpretation 1 results in BT and DS reserve units being able to move twice. Your last quote of "then move other units" is not a restriction on which units can move so again this interpretation results in anything arriving from DS reserve being able to move in their movement phase. Also you must be able to move in order to change flight mode as noted above.

I've added the alternative interpretation that moving could happen in phases other than the movement phase.


Do you really think that the sequence:
Move reserves > move other units
Could possibly permit the reserves to move again?
Come off it.

If you believe that the reserves have inherent permission to move in the movement phase that sequence does not deny them that permission. I move on my reserves. I move all my non-reserve units, then I move my reserve units. I have not broken that rule as it does not state that the movement phase ends after that sequence or indeed put any restrictions on what happens after that sequence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you should make it clear that your interpretation not only allows you to change flight mode but also move 12" or indeed it requires you move 12"-24" if you don't change flight mode.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I've added the alternative interpretation that moving could happen in phases other than the movement phase.


Do you really think that the sequence:
Move reserves > move other units
Could possibly permit the reserves to move again?
Come off it.

Yes. If you're allowing the choice to switch flight modes you must allow the opportunity to move.
Since your argument is that the BTBT arrives before the movement phase, hence that clause doesn't apply, and normal reserves arrive before the movement phase, it follows that it would also not apply to normal reserves.
So normal reserves that deep strike would be allowed a movement during the movement phase.

rigeld2 wrote:

Yes. If you're allowing the choice to switch flight modes you must allow the opportunity to move.

Yes.. agreed

rigeld2 wrote:

Since your argument is that the BTBT arrives before the movement phase, hence that clause doesn't apply, and normal reserves arrive before the movement phase, it follows that it would also not apply to normal reserves.
So normal reserves that deep strike would be allowed a movement during the movement phase.

OK. I think we are generally agreed now that arriving from reserves (which can be interpreted as happening at the start of turn yes) is not the same as deploying onto the table, which will happen in the movement phase. And the sequence, move X units then move Y (where Y is not X) units, does clearly preclude moving X twice. If you follow. I can put the alternative interpretation up if you really wish, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

But I agree if you treat the BTBT as exactly the same as conventional reserves then it should also be prevented from moving. I think the largest point of contention across all these arguments whether the blood tithe should follow the same rules for reserves as normal units. Certainly both arrive via deep strike, so it is a strong argument and the most elegant (and HIWPI), but inconsistent use of the term arrive, no use of the term reserves in the DK book and generally having no idea what the DK author intended, make this very much a matter of personal interpretation.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Yes. If you're allowing the choice to switch flight modes you must allow the opportunity to move.

Yes.. agreed

rigeld2 wrote:

Since your argument is that the BTBT arrives before the movement phase, hence that clause doesn't apply, and normal reserves arrive before the movement phase, it follows that it would also not apply to normal reserves.
So normal reserves that deep strike would be allowed a movement during the movement phase.

OK. I think we are generally agreed now that arriving from reserves (which can be interpreted as happening at the start of turn yes) is not the same as deploying onto the table, which will happen in the movement phase.

No, I don't think we are "generally agreed" that something the rulebook says isn't true.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

When they arrive, deploy them. Not "When they arrive, wait until a later time."

And the sequence, move X units then move Y (where Y is not X) units, does clearly preclude moving X twice. If you follow. I can put the alternative interpretation up if you really wish, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

For Deep Striking models, according to your argument, this doesn't apply.

I'm not arguing this here. I'll edit the original post with the alternate interpretation for completeness.

So Captyn_Bob does your interpretation allow you to change flight mode and also move 12" or indeed does it require you move 12"-24" if you don't change flight mode?

Interpretation 2 does allow movement the normal distance yes.

Whether you are forced to move or not depends on how you approach Judgement 1, but if you are in swooping mode, then yes you would be forced to move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That makes for an interesting point.. an FMC arriving from deep strike reserve is both simultaneously forced to move 12" and at the same time not allowed to move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(fortunately they do not have the flier clause that they crash and die if they do not move)

Couple other odd wording of rules that are affecting this:

Under FMC deployment is says

If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.

Why do they use 'counts as' here? This is normally used to mean something is in a different state but 'counts as' being in another state. For example, choosing gliding mode when arriving but still counting as being in swooping mode, so if, for example, an interceptor weapon shot it it would still be 6 to hit.

Another thing is deep strike rule doesn't use the word 'move anywhere' BUT in reserves under arriving from reserves it says to roll for arriving reserves and then pick arriving units one by one and 'deploy it, moving it' onto the table.

So...does this mean deep strike reserves count as moving?

And if a move is made, does the changing flight mode for FMC come into effect and the player 'must choose between gliding and swooping until the next turn'?

I know the arguments both ways, just adding them as more examples of unclear wording that is muddying the issue.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Another thing is deep strike rule doesn't use the word 'move anywhere'

It actually does. It's been pointed out to you.

rigeld2 wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Another thing is deep strike rule doesn't use the word 'move anywhere'

It actually does. It's been pointed out to you.

Hmm, just read it again for the 10th time, under Deep Strike it says place onto table, no mention of the word 'move'

BUT if you read my whole previous post.

Under the Reserves - Arriving from Reserve it says

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table

Indicating that deep strike reserves also 'move onto the table' therefor making a move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It does say under deep strike 'may not move any further' would indicate that it possibly made a move, but it does not tell you under deep strike to move the model or make a move, just place it onto the table.

Hey I'll add your opinions to the thread but please don't hash it out here.

A lot of the main YMDC thread was devoted to discussing if conventional reserves arrived at the start of turn or in the movement phase, no conclusion was reached, and I will not discuss that here for either case, as ultimately this is irrelevant to this issue, as the Blood Tithe does not use the rules for reserves. Also of interest is that the reserves section is clear that units arriving by reserve cannot move again in the movement phase, making the Deep Striking clarification superfluous for Deep Strike reserves:
p135, "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it... and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as Normal."
"Not you muse first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving reserves, before any other units can move. "

Actually there is another argument here to add to the muddiness - that at the top of the Deep Strike rule it says that all deep striking units must come from reserves, and so it can be interpreted that summoned blood tithe units all count as being in reserve, and come from Deep Strike Reserve.

This has some possible implications

Under Reserves - Arriving from Reserves it says in paragraph 4 that each arriving unit is deployed and moved onto the table (meaning that deep strike is a move and therefor the BT can change flight mode)

Under FMC - Deployment - The BT (or FMC) counts as arriving from Deep Strike Reserve and so counts as being in swooping mode (which is unclear after if it can choose the mode for the rest of the turn or not, and if it can be in gliding mode and 'counts as' swooping or not)